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View Diary: Is it even possible to stop, much less reverse our course? (113 comments)

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  •  Good Gracious. (7+ / 0-)

    We were always headed for this willingly, but we aren't doomed to anything. I can't wait for this generation to finally lose its grasp on the reins because it is too stubborn, too ingrained in its assumptions, to ever change anything.

    Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, way to go. We have fought the same battles for 40 years, with the recent addition of torture, widespread spying and other totalitarian goodies.

    This nation will survive. This people will survive. And God knows, Obama won't be half the monster coming out of it that one might guess, based on popular opinion at the moment. And people are going to look back on this decade, of which we are only at the beginning, as exciting the way some here nostalgically view the 1930s.

    Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

    by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:31:32 PM PST

    •  I love you for your optimism (5+ / 0-)

      "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

      by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:35:57 PM PST

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      •  I don't know that it's optimism (6+ / 0-)

        it's just a sense of the trends. Because it's easy to get lost in the information overload, and much harder to get that ladder-high perspective, let alone an aerial-based view.

        Liberals and conservatives both are left to mourn things that are dying so ugly that it's shocking to take in. The idea is that we can save those things, but really justice demands we create new things radically. These are trying times.

        Some of our hard battles will look insignificant someday, and many of us are going to rise from minor note to legend or admiration, but for reasons we are too short-sighted to appreciate or expect.

        Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

        by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:40:26 PM PST

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        •  what a lovely comment (5+ / 0-)

          No wonder you get along with conservatives. If I had a mindset like that, I could likely get along with anybody..

          Meanwhile, this aerial-based view is just killing me.

          Must.Plant.More.Trees.

          "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

          by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:41:58 PM PST

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          •  Heh, heh. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            satanicpanic, science nerd, Miep

            I can get along with some conservatives, but there are some I have the ugliest flamefests with, too.

            Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

            by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:50:40 PM PST

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            •  Not! shocked, I tell you. (eom) (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nulwee

              "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

              by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:53:41 PM PST

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              •  That is a prettier purple (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Miep

                than you'll usually find in the northwest. You also have coneflower, yarrow and, my personal favorite, Sand Lily.

                http://www.easterncoloradowildflower...

                Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

                by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:22:46 PM PST

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                •  We had yarrow growing wild (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Nulwee

                  in New England. And from what I hear from friends and family in the PNW, everything grows there, and usually too much.

                  I've never seen yarrow growing wild here, though I could probably grow it tame if I tried; likely even get it to naturalize (if I watered it).

                  I'm not in Colorado, though...perhaps I've confused you? I'm down in SE NM.

                  I was just thinking that maybe this aster would work in Colorado because it is so hardy here.

                  We have Mexican hats here, though. They are lovely.

                  Mexican hats 2

                  "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

                  by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:27:36 PM PST

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                  •  Sorry, I meant DawnG (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Miep

                    I think she's in Colorado. Yarrow is cicumboreal (Achillea millefolium) although the subspecies differ. I know that various subspecies extend across the northern part of the 48 and it's in Alaska. Not surprising it would be on the subpolar coastal plains of New England.

                    Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

                    by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:48:03 PM PST

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                  •  Yeah, pretty much everything grows here (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Charles CurtisStanley, Miep

                    except lemon trees, much to my sorrow, as I love Meyer lemons.

                    The things that grow here best are blackberry bushes. Also moss (you get it on your car, even), scotch broom, and more blackberry bushes.

                    Living kidney donor needed; type B, O, or incompatible (with paired donation). Drop me a note (see profile).

                    by Kitsap River on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 01:10:12 AM PST

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                    •  yeah, probably not warm enough (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kitsap River

                      for citrus.

                      I know about those blackberries...they line the roads for miles. And the moss, and the scotch broom...don't forget that variegated white and green leafed stuff that escaped from planter boxes, what is that called? (wracks brain) Lamia. False lamia.

                      Yep, y'all have a great climate for invasive things. I have a broom plant in my yard; they don't invade here. Not enough rain. No moss. Mushrooms sometimes, though.

                      "You can call it whatever you want...you can call it a very long speech." -Bernie Sanders

                      by Miep on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 08:20:47 PM PST

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    •  I'm not arguing the nation won't survive. (8+ / 0-)
      But it will likely be changed into something else, something new and different.  And it's not even the first time this has happened.  We've been through many crises in our 200+ year history and managed to make it through.  Civil war.  Great depression.  Nothing good ever lasts forever and nothing bad ever lasts forever either.  

      What I'm asking is should we be focusing our energies on trying to stop it, or should we be focusing our energies and preparing for it and dealing with it and getting through it.  I'm not talking survivalists militia crap either.  

      The pie is a lie!

      by DawnG on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:37:11 PM PST

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      •  RE: (5+ / 0-)

        Make no mistake, our nation is headed towards a fall and our representatives in government seem hellbent on that course.  Lately our options seem to be limited to "sooner" or "later" and I for one would rather it happen on the republican's watch.  It's a giant game of hot potato and we don't want it when the music stops.  I hear people yelling "work harder!" and "Don't give up!" and "It'll be your fault!".  But it is starting to ring hollow.

        I don't think our nation is headed towards a fall. It's just blindingly, obviously corrupt now, as opposed to so tolerably corrupt it's a mere joke and something only crazy people fly into a rage about. (The 90s and early 2000s.) We have threats to our democracy, but they are still mostly threats.

        Today, I said to a friend you never lose money by betting against the optimists, but in this case I just don't agree.

        As far as work harder, we are in a great flattening of the world, although not the way Friedman believes, but rather because of the internet. Either way, it wasn't realistic to expect anyone, even Gore, could have come into the current Democratic Party and prevented serious pain from change. Pain destroys people, it is not human. But change also saves societies.

        Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

        by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:44:59 PM PST

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        •  You're on a roll here. That was astute. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nulwee, science nerd

          "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

          by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:52:53 PM PST

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        •  I have to parse my language do I? (6+ / 0-)
          Would it help to say we are headed towards a giant crisis instead of "fall"?  

          By "fall" i'm referring to our fall from superpower status into something lesser, maybe even much lesser.  Time alone will tell.  And maybe we'll be a better country for it.  Maybe we'll be wiser for it.  Or maybe we'll end up the next (Godwin forgive me) Nazi Germany.  Who knows?  But something is going to happen.  And it is going to be very unpleasant to a LOT of people.  Tragicly unpleasant or even lethally unpleasant to many.

          is it even avoidable at this point?  

          The pie is a lie!

          by DawnG on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:54:31 PM PST

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          •  I think we'll be better (3+ / 0-)

            and whether you're an optimist or a pessimist, you could possibly concur if only because we're a very wretched, immoral, fearful, resentful and cruel country right now.

            Young people today are the least racist, least violent generation in American history. There were several hundred murders in this country last year... not a hell of a lot for how many crazy people are running around. They are not going to join any Hitler Youthesque movement, and that is where the economic similarities between here and Weimar cease.

            Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

            by Nulwee on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:02:46 PM PST

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          •  nope, not as you describe it (0+ / 0-)

            "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

            by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:05:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  okay, you want advice? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DawnG, Nulwee, khereva, JustJennifer

        If you have any money at all, shop for non-perishable food that's on sale, enough to last for a few months. Also think about what you're going to need to buy anytime in the next few months and start shopping for deals. Watch for signs of the feds engendering hyperinflation. This isn't about survivalist militia crap; it's about what's about to happen to our economy.

        If you have more money than that, try to figure out a way to invest it other than in US dollars.

        Keep a reserve fund, of course. If you can.

        Get to know your neighbors. If you are in a position to rent out space to somebody, consider that. There are some desperate people out there and some of them are perfectly sane, just unfortunate.

        If you're unemployed and have even a tiny bit of land to work with, consider trying to grow produce. Learn to buy at yard sales and thrift shops. Sell on Craig's list.

        I should just spend the rest of my life blogging about how to do this kind of stuff. Maybe we all should; hell, I don't know.

        There has been tons of this kind of stuff posted on this blog as it is. But we need to keep talking about it.

        "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

        by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:47:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've been a big fan of bondad... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis, Nulwee, JustJennifer, Miep

          ...over the last 4 years or so.  NO debt. diversify investments.  have an "oh shit" fund.  

          So I'm okay on that.  I'm less worried about myself.  I'm pretty good at avoiding catasrophes. but there are so many people living on the bleeding edge.  What will happen to them?

          The pie is a lie!

          by DawnG on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 09:59:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, some of them (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nulwee

            will show up here, make friends with us, get educated by us, lean on our shoulders and cry when they run into bad places, and occasionally have severe problems and be helped by us, $5 at a time.

            And some of those will become us.

            And some other people will die. And some other people yet will find different paths to survival.

            "Moral high ground, meet mountain top removal." - David Kroning II

            by Miep on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:03:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I like bondad too.. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nulwee

            I just mentioned him elsewhere tonight.

            I am living on the edge, but am blessed compared to many.  I try not to get too trapped by my circumstances though.

            I'm afraid it is going to get much, much worse for so many before it gets better...if it does at all.  I have become much more focused on community action since I was laid off.  I looked around and realized this is where I could make a difference immediately.  It helps keep the feeling of hopeless away a bit.

            I am continually amazed at how wrong highly intelligent people can be in the face of indisputable evidence which is inconvenient to their world view. ~ geomoo

            by JustJennifer on Thu Dec 09, 2010 at 10:40:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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