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View Diary: When Church and State Collide (and the State caves) (35 comments)

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  •  Were I work... (3+ / 0-)
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    irishwitch, khereva, jessical

    This is way, way more symptomatic of insititutional tone and policy than church/state as such.

    no one could ever get away with what this guy did.  My institution wouldn't have it, and neither should a state government institution. It has nothing to do with a lack of "policy" it has to do with the law (hence the lawsuit for violating Ms. Yant's privacy rights).

    When you think of it, Ms. Yant PAYS this guy's salary!! He's a state worker and because of his religious beliefs, he's harassing and denying services to people.

    You also said:

    In my experience, only 1 person in a thousand or ten thousand really has it in for trans folks.  

    Dimartini, as I pointed out, confuses transsexuality with homosexuality.  To him they are the same thing.

    And you said:

    All of you reading this will let your friends tell jokes about how if they slept with one they'd have to kill it, and not say a word.

    NOT ME. ANYONE TELLS A TRANS JOKE HEARS FROM ME.

    •  Well... (2+ / 0-)
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      BoxerDave, irishwitch

      In the larger scope, sure, church/state and all that.  In the smaller scope...the law can say whatever, the local rules people are told to follow for their job (and to keep their job) are what counts.  

      NO institution should allow anti-trans discrimination, of course.  

      In my experience, gender nonconformity can elicit really strong reactions in a very very small minority of people.  Those folks may not make fine distinctions between gay and trans, but in either case it is often the "transness" that freaks them out.  

      I'd include my trans self in that "any" actually.  I have had friends who tell jokes like that.  I don't laugh, but whether I drub/drop them or not depends on whether I love them.  Certainly I have many friends who think nothing of the people close to them holding those views.  I think this is just reality in our culture, sadly.  What I was trying to chase (and just sounded pissy instead, sorry) is the idea that day to day, moment to moment civil rights are determined by what is formally tolerated by the people who pay us at work, ie policy.  An entire culture can find something repulsive but still acknowledge, in law and local rules, that human beings are allowed to be like that and should still be treated properly.  

      ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

      by jessical on Fri Dec 10, 2010 at 12:52:28 PM PST

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      •  No need to apologize.... (2+ / 0-)
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        irishwitch, jessical

        ...if I were trans (or black) I'd be one pissy mother-fucker!!!!!!

        You said:

        gender nonconformity can elicit really strong reactions in a very very small minority of people.  Those folks may not make fine distinctions between gay and trans, but in either case it is often the "transness" that freaks them out.

        YEP, and this is very likely why assaults on trasgendered folks (and GLB people too) are so incredibly violent and often deadly.  It's so fucking enraging.  

      •  For what it's worth, one of the reasons (2+ / 0-)
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        BoxerDave, jessical

        we don't do Christmas with the in-laws as a whole is the kind of comments they make about all sorts of minorities, including sexual ones (my BiL, a man who is basically decent, is also a screaming homophobe who wouldn't allow his  8 and 5 year old boys to be alone with their gay cousin).  If I said anything, I got yeleld at or ridiculed for defending groups they didn't care for or found amusing.  I don't pout up with comments like that.  SO to save my stomach lining and my hsuband's minimal relationship with his siblings, we stay home and have MiL over for either Xmas Eve.

        Yeah, they're not crazy about Wiccans either, or GOths, which puts me right in their rifle sights as well.

        What bothered me was the insane anti-TG attitude among some kinky folks when a good friend  decided to transition. You;d think folks who like floggers wouldn't have a problem--but a few gave her a really hard time, and she is one of the kindest, nicest, gentlest souls I've ever known. And no one would dance with her, except my husband.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Fri Dec 10, 2010 at 02:53:30 PM PST

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        •  The leather community is a mix (1+ / 0-)
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          BoxerDave

          My own experience in medium sized communities (Seattle, Amsterdam) was that people thought that since they had a couple of trans friends, they were cool and didn't have to think about it any more.  In important ways, they were cool, and some of them went out of their way to include me in volunteer work and organizations which serve the community.  In other ways, one was assured that they'd think about it to a point -- and no further.  Which could get old.  There were always a few narsty assumptions encoded in the acceptance.  But that doesn't mean their hearts weren't good, or that they didn't take risks to give me entre' and saftey.

          I don't always know how to deal with people's larger social attitudes toward trans folks.  I don't tolerate some stuff, but in the end it is about keeping the chip on my shoulder down to a size that won't snap my neck when I try to sleep.  The same in (considerably)lesser measure for being a wiccan and a socialist type, of course.  If it's constant like you describe, then yeah, it's abusive, and the self-preserving thing is to flee before your heart breaks or someone ends up buried by the rose bushes.  But there's a big gray area for me...15 years ago it was all so clear :}  Now I think...is today about the revolution, or just dinner and work and that novel I want to read and some time with the cat.

          ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

          by jessical on Fri Dec 10, 2010 at 04:11:32 PM PST

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