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View Diary: President McCain's tax cuts. (146 comments)

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  •  comment (0+ / 0-)

    well this past election seemed to be about "getting the economy on track." if tax cuts are extended two years, to the next election, the argument could be better framed in our favor. either the economy will be on track, and we can argue to rescind, or the economy won't and the republicans will be responsible. beyond politics, as it's been pointed out -- it isn't quite coherent to argue that for solvency's sake, the wealthy tax cuts are the only ones to target. all should be eliminated, if that is the priority. if the priority is economic stimulus, it's another framework i suppose. so, i do support the president still.. also i'm not sure how 2% off your social security taxes for a year "starves" the program. and as a way of eliminating it? etc.  

    •  it's a slippery slope argument - and one I'm (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fivefouranonymous, JeffW

      pretty skeptical of.

      "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

      by grannyhelen on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 08:45:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  ifs and buts. (7+ / 0-)

      We have no reason to expect that will be the case (that a better economy will change the frame 2 years from now).  How many years of "turning a corner" did we have to listen to to know the Iraq war was a bad idea?

      And as for the social security tax "holiday" there are plenty of diaries and front page stories that explain it quite well so I'm not going to comment on it but I recommend you seek them out.

      I am the promise of all mankind, just like you.

      by DawnG on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 08:51:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many "Dems" are now turning into (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pawtucketpat, Miep

        Friedman and his corner?!

        If dailykos is infected.....oh shit for everyone else.

        I blame the media. They trashed Assange day in and day out with lies and poof public opinion is against Wikileaks. Same with everything. I will call it the Matthews/Gergan effect.

        371/400- "this makes you extremely progressive"

        by cedar park on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:06:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  well there are only a couple of options (0+ / 0-)

        economy gets better, economy gets worse, economy doesn't change.

        i've read some of the arguments about self-destructive tax holiday. i don't really agree. FICA's changed several times over its history. as an aside, i was against the iraq war before it started..

        •  but those three options... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aspe4, JeffW, Willa Rogers, Miep

          ...ar enot equally likely.  It is far more likely for it to get worse than to get better, I think.

          And yes the tax rate has changed in the past to address changes in the number of retired persons and address future payouts.  But has there ever been a tax holiday for the sake of lowering taxes?  Baby boomers are retireing and expenditures are INCREASING, but we're taking a tax holiday for something that has absolutely nothing to do with Social security. Has that ever happened?

          I am the promise of all mankind, just like you.

          by DawnG on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:11:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Social Security (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aspe4, JeffW, demoKatz, pawtucketpat

            isn't really a tax. It's an investment, and now they would like to steal it from those who need it most.

            "You can call it whatever you want...you can call it a very long speech." -Bernie Sanders

            by Miep on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:14:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  it is a tax. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aspe4, Miep

              but it is a dedicated tax, like medicare is a dedicated tax.  It goes straight into the Social security trust fund and never sees the light of the budget.

              This was intentional to prevent politicians from diverting SS funds away from the program and into other expendatures.  But buying treasury bonds with the trust fund (thereby putting money directly in the budge) pretty much blew that all to hell.

              I am the promise of all mankind, just like you.

              by DawnG on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:22:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  okay, I won't argue with you (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Garrett, Aspe4, pawtucketpat

                about technicalities..but the way it is structured, and seen by those whose paychecks are garnished for it; is that this is something we pay into, so that we will get it back with interest when we are old and fragile.

                Legal reality is important. Public perception is important.

                If the people who run this place take away monies we've paid into, with such expectations, the peasants might actually revolt.

                "The point of the exercise is that this is not about 'who,' this is about 'what.'" -DawnG

                by Miep on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:28:21 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's one reason the 'pukes constantly frame it (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Aspe4, Miep

                  as a welfare program (when it's not). They want to make people feel they don't deserve it, or that it isn't their money (when it is). And they've convinced a frighteningly large percentage of the population.

                  What could BPossibly go wrong?? -RLMiller

                  by nosleep4u on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 11:17:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yep totally right on there. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    nosleep4u, pawtucketpat

                    It's teh crazy, all of that.

                    We should stop framing it as teh stupid.

                    It's about mentally ill abused shit. That's what the hardcore fucked Republicans are good at; abusing and ignoring that they are doing that.

                    I should write a diary about that.

                    "The point of the exercise is that this is not about 'who,' this is about 'what.'" -DawnG

                    by Miep on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 11:21:52 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  the holiday is about giving people more money to (0+ / 0-)

            spend. given some multiplier effect or whatnot, more money in pockets should mean more jobs. and more jobs means more SS revenue the next year.

            as for historically, i'm really not sure. someone should see where tax holidays have been used nationally and to what effect. of course local sales tax holidays happen on the clock.

            i think the economy will get better; that has been the trend for the past months anyhow. i am not a lamb or a "dem" with quotation marks. i just think we move forward the way we can. had we won the election, this all wouldn't be happening .. i know i did my part then. trying, now.

            •  it won't happen. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Garrett

              a couple percentage points wil not make that much of a difference.  It won't make a difference for the people who have no jobs.

              we need more jobs, not tax cuts.

              I am the promise of all mankind, just like you.

              by DawnG on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:23:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  then why is it worth arguing over? (0+ / 0-)

                quick calculation: mean household income ($46,000) minus FICA rate for a year? $2,000+  

                •  it's worth arguing becuase there it is a... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Aspe4, pawtucketpat, Mr Robert

                  ...failed strategy that tax cuts creates jobs and that in turn creates revenues.  The Bush tax cuts have gone on for 10 years and Bush ended with the weakest job growth record in a LONG time.

                  But people keep doing it.  "Oh if we cut taxes, it'll make a difference", and "If we lower interest rates it'll promote investment".

                  It's a lie.  But no one is willing to do ANYTHING else because they think if they do it THIS time, it'll become true.

                  It's all pie in the sky.  And the Pie is a lie.

                  I am the promise of all mankind, just like you.

                  by DawnG on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 09:41:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It's worth arguing over because (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Aspe4, catnap1972, pawtucketpat

                  it opens a very dangerous door for drop-kicking SS over a cliff.

                  "Oh it's only one year"
                  "Oh, just one year more"
                  "Oh, just oooone more. Really, it's the last one"
                  "But we hafta do it again this year, its election year!
                  "Only one more", we praaahmise!"
                  "It's been five years, may as well make it permanent"
                  .
                  .
                  .

                  That is how things work in DC.

                  That is how the fake SS budget crisis will become real.

                  That little slash in SS investment cuts ten years from SS's solvency.

                  What could BPossibly go wrong?? -RLMiller

                  by nosleep4u on Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 11:24:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  It likely has little to do with any of those (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Garrett, Aspe4, Mr Robert

            three options. FWIW I think the economy will be on the uptick but it won't have anything to do with this "deal" and more about the recession running it's course.

            But I guarantee you that the "deal" will be touted far and wide, especially by the GOP, that tax cuts for the wealthy turned the economy around. We are helping to foment the trickle down economics of the 80's and we will be paying for that mistake with more than just the additional money that we transfer to the wealthy.

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