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View Diary: It's not the disagreement. It's the disrepect. (249 comments)

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  •  Just wondering: (18+ / 0-)

    How did you feel about the disrespect we showed George W. Bush?

    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

    by IndieGuy on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 09:46:26 AM PST

    •  Well, as a two term President presiding over (13+ / 0-)

      two mismanaged wars, who once lost the popular vote and once had his brother help give him the victory, somehow that seemed more proportional and understandable.

      Twenty three months after inherting the mother of all cluster f$#@s where every choice is not a great choice, it would just seem that folks who claimed to "support" a President would be just a bit less strident in their attacks.

      Especially when you consider the fact that many of the policies that are being advocated do not have enough support in Congress to pass.

      Oh well.

      •  Then, you agree it's okay to disrespect a (23+ / 0-)

        President with whom you disagree?  I don't see the problem, then.

        Here's the bottom line:  Respect must be earned.  Once earned, it can be lost.  Actions matter.  If Obama's actions have resulted in lack of respect for him, maybe he needs to rethink his actions.

        "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

        by IndieGuy on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 09:53:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, I did not say that. I said I thought (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snout, Whimsical, Dirtandiron

          President Bush earned the level of criticism he received.

          I don't think most of that criticism was disrepectful, it was an accurate description of what was happening.

          Reality based if you will.

        •  Agreed (9+ / 1-)

          Funny thing is when I saw the diary title I thought someone was making an argument about respect toward progressives.

          In other words, we should be able disagree with the President without having him call us names and being snidely dismissive (or have his rank and file be snidely dismissive).

          Respect works both ways. He's shown he has none for us, so fuck him. If the diarist would like to change that dynamic, I would suggest the diarist try again to reach this community of left leaning progressives by calling out the President for his initial and continued show of ugly disrespect.

          90% tax on all income over a million or more: a simple solution to funding Healthcare Reform, extending Social Security benefits and other budgetary concerns.

          by DelicateMonster on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:02:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, if you compare what the President has (8+ / 0-)

            said about the left to what the left has said about him, I really don't think there is much comparison.

            Spinless whore versus sanctimonious.

            Yeah, no contest.

            •  You're right Nashville fan (5+ / 0-)

              it's no contest. When the President and his enablers utter things like purist or sanctimonious and (sotto voce) 'fucking retarded' --it's picked up by the largest media on earth and trumpeted around the world so even some wee villager in Cambodia can here our President ridicule and deride his own base.

              When we say it, it's on a website with a reach of perhaps 6000 users at any given time and we actually have ratings to qualify --and disqualify--especially viscious or unwarranted assaults like --oh, I donno--'fucking retarded'

              No contest absolutely--the President and his hack apologists--are by far the biggest pricks.

              90% tax on all income over a million or more: a simple solution to funding Healthcare Reform, extending Social Security benefits and other budgetary concerns.

              by DelicateMonster on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:31:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Coming from a DelicateMonster, I guess I (0+ / 0-)

                understand.

              •  Rahm is known for his sharp, unruly tongue... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv, Nashville fan

                his median comment is far and away from the median for the rest of the population. Hence, I don't pay much attention to them as a reflection of the administration, just as a reflection of Rahm's limited vocabulary and hot temper.

                He has other positive traits, but obviously not enough that the President put pressure on him to stay. Perhaps the President even encouraged him to leave exactly because of his abrasiveness? If that's the case, isn't the President praiseworthy at least on that point?

                •  Which is why his azz should not be (2+ / 0-)

                  Mayor of Chicago.  I disagreed with Obama's choice of this guy as COS.  It set the wrong tone and he is a DNC'er to boot.  

                  Which is really the underbelly of the problem with Obama.  Yet it is still impossible to elect a pure progressive to that office.  This is what some progressives refuse to understand.  If it were up to me, I would have preferred Edwards or Kucinich as President.

                  I knew what Obama was when I voted for him in the general because I reviewed his positions more than concentrated on his speeches.  So I'm not surprised at his actions, although I may not like all of them.  Yeah, I want him to just go off on the GOP thugs too.

                  But it's not practical and you can't play a game that your opponent has mastered all too well.  You have to play your own game.

                  The GOP majority under Bush really screwed this country up and when we yell and scream at our side for not repairing the damage in 2 years, then we aren't being very reasonable.  Yet I understand the frustration.  

                  I just don't think that disrespecting the President will get us anywhere.  

                  "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

                  by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:42:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I completely agree that disrespecting the Pres (4+ / 0-)

                    gets us nowhere except into a navel gazing pit.

                    The President is not our problem. The Supreme Court, yes. The Senate structure, yes. The Constitution, yes. The media takeover, yes.

                    There are a lot of serious problems that we should be focusing on, including the rightward tipping, "nothi' to see here, keep on movin'" Supreme Court with its "corporations == citizens" decision following the equally bad Bush v Gore ideology driven travesty.

                    The increasingly serious lack of equal representation caused by the 2 senators per state principle that seriously under represents the majority of the people.

                    The power of single individuals, such as the reprehensible Jeff Sessions and good old boy, high-fiveing Sen. Max Baucus, the result of the Senate's tenure system.

                    The right wing dominance of the media.

                    Those are just a few of the real challenges/opportunities that undermine our government, that we could do something about.

          •  I would reverse the chicken and egg in this (6+ / 0-)

            dynamic, actually:

            Respect works both ways. He's shown he has none for us, so fuck him.

            I've seen very little respect shown the man or the office on this site, from my first days on the site during the primaries, all the way up to today.  

            now, "respect" is obviously not required from citizens to the POTUS, but I think to anyone who's been on the site for two years, the whole "we only disrespect him because we've been disrespected" argument doesn't hold water, unless you're speaking ONLY for yourself.  because the hardcore "sellout" name-calling stuff started BEFORE inauguration day, with the discovery that Rick Warren was going to there, and continued in earnest on a daily basis as everything that came to light was treated as a new outrage.

            Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

            by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:38:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Picking of Rick Warren alone (5+ / 0-)

              was a contempible act and showed enormous disrespect to a core Democratic constituency.

              I didn't call him a fucking idiot directly after that, however-- nor did I call his thin skinned and arrogant apologists and enablers fucking idiots (or fucking retards, for that matter)...In retrospect, it's obvious I should have.

              90% tax on all income over a million or more: a simple solution to funding Healthcare Reform, extending Social Security benefits and other budgetary concerns.

              by DelicateMonster on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:44:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I thought you were arguing about (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nashville fan

                snidely dismissive namecalling.

                because surely you realize not everyone had your restraint on inauguration day.  which goes back to MY point.

                Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

                by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:51:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's obvious you didn't get my point (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  busternjake, Uberbah, ThAnswr

                  so let me explain it again.

                  Picking Rick Warren for his inauguration was a slap in the face of a core constiuency (LGBT community) that got Obama elected.  That act was more publically offensive than a thousand moments of name calling on some corner of the internet. I didn't participate in name calling then because I figured it was Obama being tone deaf and dumb.

                  As it turns out what looked like an initial outlier was the entirety of his ruling program. Snub the left and kiss the assholes of everyone to the right of Boehner.

                  Obama and his arrogant enablers (and brain dead dlc hack advisors) have only themselves to blame. They started the ugly before he even walked into office. He'll lose in 2012 if he continues to listen to their --and your -- advice. Because for political junkies the dlc hacks have sadly become the dumbest guys in the room.

                  90% tax on all income over a million or more: a simple solution to funding Healthcare Reform, extending Social Security benefits and other budgetary concerns.

                  by DelicateMonster on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:03:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  this is why you're wrong though: (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sylv, Nashville fan

                    Because for political junkies the dlc hacks have sadly become the dumbest guys in the room.

                    maybe some do (I'm a political junkie).  but "political junkies" make up a supersmall portion of the electorate.

                    Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

                    by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:00:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  That sticks in my craw too (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DelicateMonster, blueoasis, ThAnswr

                At the time, I was just miffed and wondering how his communications team could be that inept.  After all that has since happened I think it was an intentional signal that the gays were going under the bus.

            •  let's try a different chicken and egg (5+ / 0-)

              because the hardcore "sellout" name-calling stuff started BEFORE inauguration day, with the discovery that Rick Warren was going to there, and continued in earnest on a daily basis as everything that came to light was treated as a new outrage.

              Let's say Bill Clinton invited David Duke to his first inauguration in 1993, to be a part of the ceremony, after promising to be a "fierce advocate" for black civil rights during the campaign.  And this is just two months after Duke played a large role in passing a draconian identification law in Louisiana that would directly lead to discrimination against tens of thousands of blacks in the state.

              How pissed off would you have been?  How much respect would Clinton been entitled to in that event?

              "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

              by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:47:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  if I concede your point, which is obvious (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nashville fan

                will you concede that the

                "we only call names because they called names first"

                thing is a bullshit line of argument?

                because that was indeed my point.

                Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

                by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:49:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  except if that's the egg... (0+ / 0-)

                  "we only call names because they called names first"

                  ...then at least the GLBT's and supporters are perfectly justified in calling him names.  But this is besides the point, which is that discontent is based on Obama's policies and actions, not schoolyard politics.

                  And personally, I think you'll find that most of Obama's liberal critics still like Obama the man, and would be happy to "have a beer with him", we are just deeply disappointed with President Obama, and wish that Candidate Obama would make a return.

                  "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                  by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:43:42 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I would be stunned to find this: (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sylv, Uberbah, Nashville fan

                    I think you'll find that most of Obama's liberal critics still like Obama the man

                    literally, mouth open and knees buckled, stunned.

                    Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

                    by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:57:46 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  mally, just give in to the dark side already... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mallyroyal, ThAnswr

                      ...your mind is already with the malcontents, and your heart is half-way there....

                      literally, mouth open and knees buckled, stunned.

                      Our objections are and have always been based on policy, not personality.  We were ecstatic to be able to vote for the first AA president in history, we just miss the Candidate Edition.

                      "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                      by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:09:01 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  my mind and heart are where they should be (4+ / 0-)

                        and where many other supporters' are, I'd wager.  but I can only speak for myself...

                        as can you.  in that vein, I disregard your use of the word "our".

                        especially since the "I'd rather compromise than fight, if possible" feature of the man's personality is an issue dividing this community currently.

                        Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

                        by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:16:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  it's the policies, stupid (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          DelicateMonster

                          as can you.  in that vein, I disregard your use of the word "our".

                          Feel free, but I'll still hammer the point that 100% of the discontent is based on policy and always has been.

                          It's the policy.

                          It's the policy.

                          It's the policy.

                          especially since the "I'd rather compromise than fight, if possible" feature of the man's personality is an issue dividing this community currently.

                          First problem with that storyline: Obama compromises away the liberal position before negotiations even begin.  Even if he hated the very idea of Single Payer, why give it away for free instead of using it as a point of negotiation?  Why give away expanded offshore oil drilling without even asking the GOP to make a single concession in return?  Why appoint a deficit commission that takes deep cuts in military spending and steep increases in marginal tax rates off the table?

                          Second problem with that storyline: Obama has shown that it's more than willing to play hardball...when it comes to advancing a conservative agenda.  Like when he pressures liberal Democrats to support a health care insurance law with mandates and excise taxes when he never pressured Nelson or Lincoln to support a bill with a public option.  When he threatens to veto even a token increase of Congressional oversight of the CIA, but didn't make a similar threat wrt denying funds for closing Gitmo.  When he let Democrats in the House get hammered and then pours on the pressure to pass a tax cut bill - that ads more to the deficit than Bush's tax policies.

                          "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                          by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:32:38 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I never bought that whole "he pressured this one (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Uberbah

                            but didn't pressure that one" stuff, quite honestly.

                            let me go back and look for some proof of all those assertions before I respond substantively.

                            Any war requires forces that use their pen against the enemy, not in foolish tirades against their own leader, abetting the enemy. ~qua

                            by mallyroyal on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:35:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  shouldn't this stuff be common knowledge... (0+ / 0-)

                            let me go back and look for some proof of all those assertions before I respond substantively.

                            ...on a site for political junkies?  On taking single payer off the table even as a point of negotiation: "If I were designing a system from scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-payer system".

                            On Phamra: Obama made the exact same deal with the exact same lobbyist that he attacked in campaign ads in 2008.  Then he pressured Congress to drop Dorgan's drug re-importation amendment, after it had even reached that magical 60 vote threshold.

                            During the campaign Obama talked about expanded offshore drilling as part of a "comprehensive energy" bill.  Well, he up and gave Republicans offshore drilling alright - but where's the comprehensive energy bill?

                            Then there's his policies on national "security" and the GWOT, which sometimes can even be worse than Bush's policies.  From authoring assasinations of American citizens to threatening to veto increased oversight of the CIA to expanded claims of executive privilege.  And of course, don't forget Obama's speech where he decried Bush's "ad hock" legal framework for dealing with suspected terrorists and calling for the rule of law....while proposing his own ad hock legal framework for dealing with suspected terrorists.

                            Obama has shown he is willing and capable of playing hardball when it's some he really wants.  Unfortunately, none of the things he's really wanted have benefited us.

                            "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                            by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 09:26:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Excellent summation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Uberbah

                            Uberbah. Write a diary with this comment. It's quite good.

                            90% tax on all income over a million or more: a simple solution to funding Healthcare Reform, extending Social Security benefits and other budgetary concerns.

                            by DelicateMonster on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 07:57:33 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  thanks! :) (0+ / 0-)

                            "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                            by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 08:22:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

          •  HR'd for personal insult. (0+ / 0-)

            He who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.

            by Sophie Amrain on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 02:48:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Not only is the disrespect (9+ / 0-)

          to President Obama horrendous, but we are entering into the realm of alice in wonderland here.

          Pres. Obama has 80% approval with Dem voters, 89%AA approval
          The FP and majority of rec list diaries paint him as a failure who is being rejected by his own party.

          That is untrue.

          Why is there so much effort  to pain him not only as a failed President but a failure as a man?

          What is the source of so much  hostility to Pres. Obama at Dkos?

          •  Lightshine, I continue to believe opposition on (6+ / 0-)

            site is supported by those who never supported this president.  DKos is a site that is said to be democratic, so the opposition has joined the community to do mischief.  The clear objective of many on this site is the destruction of President Obama's administration, and the democrats who support this President.  Now, there are those who are clearly trying to make this fight racial.  Some throw out insults to rile up feelings centered on racial injustice.  I don't know where all of this will go, but there is a real feeling of hysteria developing at this site.  It seems to me there should be some effort to calm people.  I don't think this is a good environment for reasonable discussion.  

            •  You're absolutely right (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Salo, Uberbah, DaveVentura

              cassandra, those who dissent from Obama now are merely fifth columnist who were never interested in seeing his success initially. That's why I gave over a hundred dollars to his campaign, canvassed and pollwatched for him on election day.

              I just wanted to set him up for failure. But alas, now that you're onto my clever scheme I'll have to move on and help destroy a green candidacy next (rubbing hands and laughing diabolically)BHWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

              90% tax on all income over a million or more: a simple solution to funding Healthcare Reform, extending Social Security benefits and other budgetary concerns.

              by DelicateMonster on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:30:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  mass hysteria (4+ / 0-)

              That's the operative term, I'm afraid.

              It would not be surprising if a social scientist in the making used the deteriorating discourse as data for a case study to elaborate a theory of unstable mass movements.

              Not substantively different from the Tea Party's strategy of demonizing President Obama to defeat the health care bill.

              Koch bros probably didn't have to pay a dime for it, though, unless their cadre of paid bloggers seeded it.

            •  I agree that this is a factor. (3+ / 0-)

              Because I also participate on a PAID SUBSCRIPTION political site and the difference is night and day.

              Not that everyone agrees with one another or agrees with the things Obama is doing.  But the discourse is completely different.  There are a few neo-cons who pay to play but their position is very clear.  Even with that, the conversation is still very civil.

              However there are a number of DKers who are truly progressives and they ani't happy.  The sad thing is they allow the provocaturs to bait them into a bashfest and then others jump in who takes offense, and voila!

              Pie war.

              We all need to do better.
               

              "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

              by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:55:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Many of them were Obama Supporters, but (3+ / 0-)

              from reading their diaries and comments, many of them had him on a mile high pedestal; he could not possibly meet their exceptionally high hopes and ideals so the first time his actions did not meet what they expected either the timing or the results, he tumbled and in their eyes, has been tumbling ever since.    

              •  Yeah, I've said that too (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv, VickiL, Nashville fan, lightshine

                I've likened it the 'scorned lover' syndrome.  It's tough to govern when the loyal opposition is loyally insane. I really think that Obama is trying to get back to basic governing and that makes for actions that just aren't going to be popular with everyone on both sides of the aisle.  We have gotten too used to governing by bully pulpit.

                That's not how governing works and I think that history will reflect on this period in this way.  

                "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

                by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:24:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  So are you saying that you disrespect the (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sylv, fhcec, VickiL, Nashville fan, lightshine

          President?

          You can DISAGREE with his decisions.  Disrespecting him says that you think he has a flaw in his character that is not redeemable, and that is the real problem here.

          Disagree with him all you want, but there has been nothing this man has done to be disrespected.

          "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

          by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:06:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  *cough* assasinations *cough* Rick Warren *cough* (0+ / 0-)

            Disagree with him all you want, but there has been nothing this man has done to be disrespected.

            "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

            by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:46:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  *cough* NO *cough* (4+ / 0-)

              You disagreed with it.  You didn't like it.  But the President has been clear on certain positions regarding the gay community, specifically concerning gay marriage.  You guys knew that or should have known that when you made your voting decision if it was a deal breaker for you.

              "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

              by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:00:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  too bad Obama disagrees with you (0+ / 0-)

                From the White House site no less:

                But I say this:  We have made progress and we will make more.  And I want you to know that I expect and hope to be judged not by words, not by promises I've made, but by the promises that my administration keeps.  And by the time you receive -- (applause.)  We've been in office six months now.  I suspect that by the time this administration is over, I think you guys will have pretty good feelings about the Obama administration.  (Applause.)  

                You were saying?  And that's just on gay rights.

                But the President has been clear on certain positions regarding the gay community

                And when did the president clearly campaign on assassinating American citizens, exactly?

                "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:13:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

                  What in the world are you talking about?  How do you go from Rick Warren to assassinating American citizens?

                  There's no discussion if you aren't going to be rational.

                  "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

                  by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:27:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Duh? (0+ / 0-)

                    What in the world are you talking about?

                    That Obama has asked for accountability for his actions and promises - you must have taken that day off.  Funny how many other fans did the same thing.

                    How do you go from Rick Warren to assassinating American citizens?

                    Obviously, that your point that the president has done nothing worthy of disrespect is complete nonsense when he's done so many contemptible things.

                    Obviously.

                    "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                    by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 09:29:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Hit "Post" to soon.... (6+ / 0-)

        Regarding this quote:  

        Especially when you consider the fact that many of the policies that are being advocated do not have enough support in Congress to pass.

        You seem to be saying ethics and principle are situational.  Don't have the votes?  Settle for less!  That is not a position worthy of respect.

        "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

        by IndieGuy on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 09:55:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So how do you suppose that the President can (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snout, Geekesque, fhcec

          get things through the Congress without the necessary votes?

          And if the votes do not matter, then how do you suppose the government can help the neediest among us when politics trumps progress?

          •  That doesn't answer the question. (7+ / 0-)

            You're saying he should only support positions where he can get the votes.  I'm saying he was hired to make the difficult decisions, not to ask Mitch McConnell what the Republicans will vote for.

            As for how he gets things through Congress, he seems to be doing a pretty good job of ramming the Obama/McConnell Welfare For The Wealthy plan through.  Every Sunday show was full of his spokespeople pushing back against the Democrats.  It would've been more appropriate to push back against the Republicans, don't you think?

            "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

            by IndieGuy on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:04:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No. What I said was that many of the things that (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snout, Geekesque, fhcec, Marianna76, lightshine

              folks are most upset about are things that are not going to happen anytime soon, regardless of the President's rhetoric.

              The President has supported and continues to support many things that haven't become reality yet.

              The inability to have any nuance in our discussions here, especially about the President, is my point.

              •  Obama has publicly abandoned most of the (8+ / 0-)

                things he campaigned on.  He has preemptively watered down most of the rest.  And when Progressives called him on it, he or his mouthpieces have publicly rebuked them by calling them whiners, fucking retarded, sanctimonious purists, "professional" leftists....

                Seems to me we're showing him as much respect as he's shown us.  Where's the problem in that?

                "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                by IndieGuy on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:12:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  IndieGuy, (0+ / 0-)

                  I 100% support your right to call the 44th President whatever you like.

                  All the best to you and yours.

                  My thoughts on the matter are above.

                •  If the truth be told IndieGuy... (6+ / 0-)

                  He didn't say any of those things, and Ralm and his press secretary made some unfortunate comments.  Also Obama didn't abandon the things he campaigned on.  Yet it is true that what he has done is a watered down version of what most progressives want, however he is also dealing with unreasonable politicans on the GOP side and inadequate help from his own side of Democratic politicans.  This is the government of today.

                  I don't recall anyone saying that people like you are retarded, but purists -- yes, I would even use that characterization, although I don't find that to be an insult.  Professional leftists?  We ALL are that so count me in.  

                  The problem is that for every thing that you read that you are offended by, I can recount a few zingers coming out of the mouths of people who think like you.  

                  In the end, it doesn't get us anywhere.

                  "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

                  by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:10:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Finally, a self-confessed Purity Troll. eom (0+ / 0-)

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:01:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  that word (0+ / 0-)

            "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

            by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:14:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The person flatly stated that compromising (4+ / 0-)

              to get votes means one forfeits the right to respect.

              It's great for keyboard jockeys, not so much for people tasked with responsibility.

              "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

              by Geekesque on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:17:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  when "compromising" = "preemtive capitutation" (0+ / 0-)

                to get votes means one forfeits the right to respect.

                then yes you do forfeit respect.  Same for defining the terms for negotiation between the center-right and far-right, as Obama has done for the last two years, on everything from health care to the wars to the banks to gay rights to the environment to "looking forward" on torture.

                If this country wanted center-right to far-right policies, McCain would be president and Denny Hassert would still be Speaker of the House.

                What compromising should be: settling for the best legislation you can get after a hard fight with a powerful opponent.  And compromise should only apply to final legislation, never your principles a la pretending that Romneycare is the best health care legislation in the last 100 years.

                "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

                by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:49:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Nashville (4+ / 0-)

        Don't expect the people who make the most vicious comments and rec the same to acknowledge their atrocious behavior.

        They will continue to savage President Obama, and contribute to their own marginal role within the Democratic party.

        Reasonable people will not align themselves with a group that uses with the brutal attacks and ongoing efforts to dehumnaize a President who is popular with his base.

        They will learn the hard way.

    •  this comment supports the narrative (8+ / 0-)

      that Obama=Bush therefore the disrespect is justified...another form of disrespect...obviously Obama has continued some of Bush's policies which I don't agree with...but he's also done a lot more differently than Bush, which I support..for me personally, until Obama starts a war based on lies...then questions the patriotism of those who oppose such a war...I will treat him with respect...even while disagreeing with some of his policies.

    •  Or (5+ / 0-)

      Hillary Clinton when she was running?

      I believe we are witnessing an out pouring of pain because people feel betrayed. This is a collective cry of grief and should not be misconstrued or personalized. For the most part this is a nothing more than grieving process.

      The same outrage would have occurred regardless of who was in office; black, white, man or woman the cry and color of pain remains the same.

      When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt

      by IndyRobin on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 10:04:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Even with George Bush (5+ / 0-)

      I couldn't stand him and still can't but the vicious name-calling I did not engage in.
      The insults launched at Pres Obama are unbelievable.
      limp loser, boy, no balls, asshole....and on and on
      On  a Democratic site.

      Something is very wrong here. And it is very ugly
      Why is this happening.  Why is this kind of attack on a Dem President accepted at DKos?

    •  Bush had deep character flaws. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fhcec, Nashville fan, lightshine

      He was not very bright, but hey.  Intelligence is not a prerequisite for being President.  He didn't understand his role as President and worse, he didn't give a shyt either.  He embrassed this country the whole world over.

      But then again 50 million plus kept voting for this man, so what does this have to say about us?

      The difference with Obama is that to date, he has not shown himself to be as deeply flawed as his predecessor.  His governing style is really what frustrates many progressives, in addition to his decisions to work with the GOP.

      You know, it has occurred to me that perhaps Obama is not getting the kind of support from the Dems in Congress as much as he needs to make the kinds of decisions that we progressives would like to see.

      But bloggers and some on here comparing Obama to Hitler?  In what world does this even remotely make sense?  Saying that those who support Obama are 'enablers', 'bots', 'brainwashed' -- I think we are taking a walk on the wild side here.

      I'm all for debating the issues, but we are getting beyond that.  I do understand that it's the economy and all of the uncertainty that comes with it that has people personalizing everything these days.  But somehow we have got to come back to civility because what is happening now is not working.  

      If you really want to make a difference, then insulting those who disagree with you will not do and that includes the President.

      I would prefer a discussion to work thru our differences as Progressives and find those areas where we agree so that we all can work together.

      I continue to wish for that.

      "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

      by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 11:28:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes, flaws.... (0+ / 0-)

        The difference with Obama is that to date, he has not shown himself to be as deeply flawed as his predecessor.  His governing style is really what frustrates many progressives, in addition to his decisions to work with the GOP.

        Bush had excuses: he was stupid, disinterested, and let Cheney run things.  What's Obama's excuse for keeping Gitmo open?*  What's Obama's excuse for tripling the forces in Afghanistan right after Karzai stole the election?  What's Obama's excuse for assassinations?  What's Obama's excuse for bailing out the banks while letting homeowners drown in fraudulent mortgages?

        * Don't bother passing the buck to Congress when it comes to Gitmo, when Obama could have ordered it closed and been done with it, or vetoed the bill denying use of federal funds instead of signing it.

        "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

        by Uberbah on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 12:04:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sry, but that is not an excuse. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nashville fan, lightshine

          People voted for this man.  Bush may have been stupid and disinterested, but he also believed in being a dictator.  That part he got.  

          Again what does it say about an American populace who would vote for such a man knowing this?  If Obama gets no breaks, then neither does Bush because both are/were the POTUS.

          Obama doesn't have to have an excuse for Afghanistan because he has always supported the continuation of that effort.  The fact that people like you continue to ignore this point is your problem.  

          Obama voted as a Senator to bail out the banks along with the Democrats and Republicans in Congress under George W. Bush.  He also supported bailing out GM and Ford which actually has worked out and now GM is looking to hire thousands of engineers.  I don't know why we have to keep going in circles about this.

          Who did Obama ordered assassinated?  I'm not interested in the hysterics here.  If you feel you need to disrespect Obama because he isn't doing all the things you want, then there is nothing I can do about that except to say that it doesn't do you any good.

          "I'm measuring everything the Democrats and President Obama do, not against what I WANT, but against the status quo." --RASalvatore 9/16/10

          by smoothnmellow on Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:06:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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