Skip to main content

View Diary: ¡Viva WikiLeaks! SiCKO Was Not Banned in Cuba (295 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  So these cables are proven erroneous. Why are we (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RJDixon74135, GrumpyOldGeek

    supposed to be so excited about these Wikileaks again?

    And why do you think Assange and Wikileaks are slowly releasing the cables?  Why not just post them all up at once?  Do you think there might be a profit motive involved?

    I'm also a bit amazed that you put so much stock in statistics, Michael, especially statistics gathered by a regime that hasn't been democratically elected in 50 years.

    I think we should lift the Cuban embargo, and we should be able to travel freely to and from Cuba, but I'm not ready to relocate to Fidel's dominion.

    I guess if I had a choice between Free Speech and Free Health Care, I would take the Free Speech.  

    It would be nice to have both though, like those rapacious Swedes do.

    "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

    by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:13:12 AM PST

    •  pssst! (24+ / 0-)

      but I'm not ready to relocate to Fidel's dominion

      who says they want you there?

      "It takes two to lie. One to lie, one to hear it." Homer Simpson

      by Euroliberal on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:34:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "erroneous" is one thing (23+ / 0-)

      Purposely misleading, deceitful, false propaganda is quite another. One is a mistake; the other is a damned lie.

      And if Uncle Sugar will lie about a mere documentary, in order to protect the insurance industry, then I shudder to think what else he's lied about. Oh, wait...

      Throw in a complicit media machine whose sole purpose seems to be raking in advertising dollars and misleading the public, and I think it's something worth getting excited about.

      Compromise is peace, power is slavery, capitulation is strength

      by Executive Odor on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:40:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps. Or perhaps Sicko was banned at the time (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fisheye, GrumpyOldGeek

        of the cable.  Communist countries can ban and unban things for various and arbitrary reasons with a wave of the hand.

        Exactly who was supposed to be the audience for this "misleading, deceitful, false propaganda"?  The American public?  Don't think so.  Health Insurers?  Don't think so.

        So are you saying that govt was lying to itself?  Do you lie to yourself very often?  Is it effective?  Do you put it in writing?

        Maybe our govt needs to see a therapist if it's lying to itself.  There we could agree.

        "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

        by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:48:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just curious... (20+ / 0-)

          did you even read the diary?

          Did you catch the part about the insurance industry spending millions to discredit "Sicko", and Michael Moore?

          Admittedly, I may be biased. I've come to a place where I trust virtually nothing uttered in public or private by anyone representing the US government.

          Adios.

          Compromise is peace, power is slavery, capitulation is strength

          by Executive Odor on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:59:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The cable doesn't claim that SICKO was banned (0+ / 0-)

            Some anecdote from some source quoted by the cable said that Sicko was banned.

            There's a big difference. A difference that seems to have confused many people.

            This wasn't a comment uttered in private or public by anyone representing the US Gov't. It was a comment from someone else which was relayed by a gov't official of some sort.

        •  I would say that your last sentence is the (7+ / 0-)

          correct one. The rest sounds like sour grapes.

          "I got news for you, pal... They're gonna nail us no matter what we do, so we might as well have a good time." -Otter

          by The House on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:59:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  In the diary. Hey? (8+ / 0-)

           

          June 16, 2007 Saturday 1:41 AM GMT [that's 7 months before the false cable]

             HEADLINE: Cuban health minister says Moore's 'Sicko' shows 'human values' of communist system

             BYLINE: By ANDREA RODRIGUEZ, Associated Press Writer

             DATELINE: HAVANA

             Cuba's health minister Jose Ramon Balaguer said Friday that American filmmaker Michael Moore's documentary 'Sicko' highlights the human values of the island's communist-run government... "There can be no doubt this documentary by a personality like Mr. Michael Moore helps promote the profoundly human principles of Cuban society."

          You are really trying to defend them. LOL.

          A Creative Revolution- - To revolt within society in order to make it a little better- Krishnamurti

          by pale cold on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:02:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So the insurance industry spends millions to get, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Don midwest, GrumpyOldGeek

            among other things, this ambassador to type up a cable that was intended to never be seen by the public to do what exactly.

            And it's NOT possible to ban Sicko while the Cuban health minister puts out a press release telling Cubans what's in Sicko?

            Then Fidel sees it and decides to air it sometime after?

            Your evidence/proof tolerance is pretty weak.  There is no proof that Sicko was not banned at the time the cable was written, or that its author didn't in fact believe it to be true at the time it was written.

            Critical thought is a long lost art obviously.

            "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

            by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:11:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Or that the state dept's source was incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

              ZOMG...Sicko was in theaters there....ZOMG that is why health care is so expensive here...they're lying to us and they set up all these LIE PANELS  OH NOESSSs!!!!!

              whatever, wikileaks reminds me of little kids looking for their prize decoder at the bottom of their Fruit Loops or Lucky Charms cereal.

              "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

              by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:16:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So.... (9+ / 0-)

                These kinds of "secret" memos are never used to support an agenda, or to give more credence to a government policy, or to bolster the philosophies of some sect of high-powered ideologues.

                Never happens. Never will. Except when it does.

                We are currently involved in at least two wars, thanks to the same kind of bullshit.

                Compromise is peace, power is slavery, capitulation is strength

                by Executive Odor on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:25:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "Critical thought is a long lost art obviously." (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Marie, conchita, KateCrashes, Salo, wabird

                Your comments offer your proof it seems.

                "I got news for you, pal... They're gonna nail us no matter what we do, so we might as well have a good time." -Otter

                by The House on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:41:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Seriously, people should have to state their age (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jconn

                  and location when they post.

                  Who makes statements like yours besides people barely out of high school?

                  It sounds exactly like, "I know you are, but what am I", with no analysis or critical thought whatsoever.

                  I am convinced that most of Julian's fans are in fact very young and still rebelling against their parents and authority in general.  It's cute and annoying.

                  "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

                  by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:49:09 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Be annoyed Jose. You clearly have an axe to grind (6+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SLKRR, conchita, Salo, poxonyou, JesseCW, wabird

                    and I needn't restate what others already have in response to your pedantic comments. Have a good day.

                    "I got news for you, pal... They're gonna nail us no matter what we do, so we might as well have a good time." -Otter

                    by The House on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:56:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re: pedantic. Using this word also makes (0+ / 0-)

                      you this word.

                      "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

                      by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:34:54 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  On the contrary, I am much more concerned with (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        wabird

                        the spirit of the Law and Journalism, not so much the letter of it, especially when adherence to the letter violates the spirit. In the course of this discussion between yourself and a few others who seem to be on your side, and those, like me, upholding the spirit of the sentiment that Michael Moore, and Mr. Assange do care about seeing the cause of Justice enhanced, you seem to be getting stuck on the details of who published what when, as if that could ever possibly refute the fact that big money interests have certainly tried to injure the both of these men.

                        I cannot see why you would try to advance or defend this idea. But that does not make me nor my thinking pedantic, I do not believe. Perhaps you could try to explain your motivation.

                        "I got news for you, pal... They're gonna nail us no matter what we do, so we might as well have a good time." -Otter

                        by The House on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:16:58 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I know that folks have schedules, but I do (0+ / 0-)

                        hope that this is not the last I will hear from you on this subject. And for that matter, I hope to dialog with you on more subjects than this. Meantime, be well.

                        "I got news for you, pal... They're gonna nail us no matter what we do, so we might as well have a good time." -Otter

                        by The House on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:14:23 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  How is life these days (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JesseCW

                    for teens, in Never-Never Land?

                    just askin'

                    Seriously, people should have to state their age and location when they post.

                    We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

                    by twigg on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 09:08:32 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm sorry that getting old is going so badly (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wabird

                    for you.

                    The Democratic Platform won 235 seats. Betraying it lost 42.

                    by JesseCW on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:01:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Hello? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kevskos, The House, bnasley

              Read the diary.
              My tolerance?
              That hole you are digging is getting deeper and deeper.

              Amusing and transparent to say the least. :)
              Six feet thus far.

              A Creative Revolution- - To revolt within society in order to make it a little better- Krishnamurti

              by pale cold on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:18:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's not like that cable is the only source for (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jconn

                the assertion that Cuba had in fact banned Sicko.

                THE SICKO DOCUMENTARY IS BANNED IN CUBA
                10-08-2007

                Havana, August 6, 2007.-There is no doubt that the Cuban authorities will not allow the Cuban people the possibility of watching this documentary by Michael Moore, a leading movie producer and ideological ally of the Cuban regime.

                I read somewhere that Cuba is 2nd only to China in locking up journalists and stifling free speech.

                Maybe they did show Sicko there.  Maybe the screening was edited, I dunno.  It makes sense to me that they would show it there as the film rightly depicts American health care as a joke and very sick.

                I just don't see the big deal, but Mr. Moore is thinks it's a bombshell.

                "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

                by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:40:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  I'm trying to figure out if this diary (5+ / 0-)

        is trying to present Michael's grasp of irony or his ignorance or his bizarre hypocrisy.

        Since he never comments I doubt he cares to read anything here but his own words. But after his last diary and this response to it one would expect an iota of self awareness to show up in a diary he posts the next day.

        Which of the categories you list does Moore's last diary on Sweden fall into?

        I never heard a word about Sicko playing in Cuba until now. Conflating every individual cable written by every individual foreign service state department official into 'Uncle Sugar' as if our government is one homogeneous blob of coordinated public messaging through classified communications with itself, is propaganda.

        Unless Wikileaks is a government conspiracy intended to publicize and propagandize classified material into public messaging, I don't think the term applies to individual's intergovernmental. cable exchanges among millions.

        •  Hello. Thank you for injecting sanity. nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DollyMadison

          "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

          by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:53:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Viva Castrominism! (0+ / 0-)

            I just had a conversation last night, with shrink friend of mine who's working in a prison, about the impeccable attention paid to the inmates' health care.

            •  California's health care for state prisoners is (0+ / 0-)

              helping to bankrupt the state.  It's about $14K/prisoner.

              We should trade with Cuba, ship our prisoners there for lower health care and housing costs, and let Mr. Moore be the Warden.

              "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

              by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:16:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  What example should they follow? (0+ / 0-)

              Haiti?  Jamaica?  I suppose the Dominican Republic is decent enough, but they'd never be allowed to live like the Costa Ricans.

              A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

              by Salo on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:58:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who? They? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DollyMadison

                Referencing the Castro regime as "they", as in Cubans, makes no sense to me. Actually Central America is slowly following Costa Rica's lead.
                "..they'd never be allowed to live like the Costa Ricans." I don't get that statement either. Most of the world doesn't have the pleasure of living like the Swiss either. It's about what they should work toward. And Costa Rica is a pretty great model.

                I always wonder why they can't tap those volcanoes for energy.

                •  Cubans (0+ / 0-)

                  Are likely to remain subjected to some variety of banana republicanism for most of their existence. Ever since Columbus arrived that's the fate of the Caribbean.  

                  A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

                  by Salo on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:50:55 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  From the Guardian (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fisheye, Escamillo

          The film-maker said on his blog that the diplomatic cable, dated 31 January 2008, was "a stunning look at the Orwellian nature of how bureaucrats for the state spin their lies and try to recreate reality (I assume to placate their bosses and tell them what they want to hear)".

          But that's not what happened given the evidence we have.

          There's no evidence that any bureaucrat created that false meme that his movie was going to be banned in Cuba. It was quoting someone else who had said it. It was simply relaying the comments of other people.

          But Michael Moore either pretends that it was the comment of a bureaucrat, or he simply has reading comprehension problems!

          •  Again IOKIYMM. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DollyMadison

            He didn't question the veracity of this

            The confidential US memo claims that when the film was shown to a group of Cuban doctors, some became so "disturbed at the blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba that they left the room".

      •  Who sent the Cable to who in the Dept? (5+ / 0-)

        There are a lot of Bush era deadwood people clogging up the government seeing what they want to so and or telling higher ups what they want to hear...

        The blind cabling the obtuse and gullible is evidence too...

        Wikileaks not only exposes the truth but exposes lies too... and the mechanism and mindset that creates or perpetuates the lies and misinformation... also self deluded wishful thinkers.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:59:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Because if it was one big dump (17+ / 0-)

      Ot would be too much, too short.

      This way keeps them in the public sphere for longer than the usual newzcycle, and it makes it far easier to highlight some.

      Like this Cuba one.

      As for your comment about Cuba, it is funny, because so many of the pro insurance lobby call Canada's statistics lies as well.
      Everyone is lying except the US.....is that it?

      A Creative Revolution- - To revolt within society in order to make it a little better- Krishnamurti

      by pale cold on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:59:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And after having our free knee surgeries (15+ / 0-)

        (5 weeks ago now and I'm going stir crazy) we crazy Canucks jet off to Cuba for mojitas!  Yes.

        Beautiful country, beautiful people.

        My whole family loves it there.

        "A Canadian is merely an unarmed American with health care." John Wing

        by marigold on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:14:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course your family loves Cuba. You are from (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Frisbeetarian, jconn

          Canada and vacation in warm, sunny Cuba at favorable exchange rates.

          What's not to love?

          But would you love it if you lived there year-round and earned $30/month?

          Don't get me wrong, I believe we should trade with Cuba as we do with China.  I still don't understand why we don't, but holding Cuba up as a paragon of basic human rights, lack of oppression, openness, freedom, and so forth is silly.

          And, what would Canada do if you had no oil to sell?  What happens to Canada when the world economies go Green and electric?  My guess is that you'd move to Cuba, year-round.

          "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

          by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:09:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Canada (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            conchita, Salo, JesseCW, wabird, Jose Bidenio

            And, what would Canada do if you had no oil to sell?  What happens to Canada when the world economies go Green and electric?  My guess is that you'd move to Cuba, year-round.

            That's right. Canada is just one huge blob of oil and when that's gone, we're done.

            Last one to leave, turn the Northern Lights off!

            "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

            by catnip on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:36:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL...I was just teasing...a little bit. But... (0+ / 0-)

              Top Canadian Exports to America 2010  as of July.

                1. Crude oil ... US$20 billion, up 85.4% from 2010 (17.5% of Canadian exports to U.S.)
                2. Large passenger automobiles ... $10.8 billion, up 117.5% (9.5%)
                3. Natural gas ... $6.9 billion, up 6.4% (6%)
                4. Medium-sized passenger automobiles ... $3.8 billion, up 131.8% (3.3%)
                5. Petroleum excluding light oils ... $3.4 billion, up 90.8% (3%)
                6. Light oils ... $2.2 billion, up 75.9% (1.9%)
                7. Potassium chloride ... $1.4 billion, up 81.3% (1.2%)
                8. Medications excluding vaccines ... $1.3 billion, down 16.4% (1.1%)
                9. Non-monetary gold ... $1.2 billion, up 83.5% (1%)
               10. Coniferous wood ... $1.18 billion, up 59.5% (1%).

              I'm not sure why coal is not on that list b/c I thought you have a lot of that too.

              Suntan lotion/oil for trips to Cuba is missing too.  :P

              "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

              by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:57:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  But I know Canadians are smart, clever and (0+ / 0-)

              pretty.  You guys invented the Wonder Bra, after all.

              "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

              by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 09:04:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Name a Carrib state that isn't (0+ / 0-)

            a den if iniquity.  Haiti isn't exactly an example i'd like Cuba to follow for example.  

            A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

            by Salo on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:56:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dutch Antilles, Domincan Republic, Virgin (0+ / 0-)

              Islands, Bermuda, Bahamas, St. Kitts, etc.

              Democratic elections are a good place to start.

              But yeah, Haiti isn't so hot, but you probably picked the most corrupt Caribbean island to start.  And it's corrupt, in no small part, b/c of our corrupt influence over many years.

              "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

              by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 09:03:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's comparable in size to Cuba. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW

                St Kitts, Bermuda were or are  British colonies too. Cuba is a sort of Spanish American bastard child.

                And I'm not saying, nor was MM that Cuba is a paradise or desirable per se. He just pointed out that they punch well above their weight in the healthcare statistics.

                You read too much into it and obviously have an axe to grind.  

                A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

                by Salo on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 09:23:24 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  No, everyone is lieing including the U.S. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DollyMadison, jconn

        and including Michael Moore. All you have to do is read his last diary to see why IOKIYMM. Maybe Moore thinks Castro's commie tyranny somehow represents self determination on the part of the Cuban people so he can extol it's virtues. Otherwise he's just playing the part of another liar lying at liars.

      •  Yeah, there is no difference (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jconn

        between Cuba's and Canada's medical reporting systems or the number of journalists locked up in both countries.

        Canada hasn't had a democratic election in 50 years.

        China continued to be world's worst jailer of journalists, a dishonor it has held for 10 consecutive years. Cuba, Burma, Eritrea, and Uzbekistan round out the top five jailers from among the 29 nations that imprison journalists. Each of the top five nations has persistently placed among the world's worst in detaining journalists.

        CPJ's 2008 prison census: Online and in jail

        But wait, Moore, Assange and their fans believe that mainstream American journalists are all horrible, so locking them up would improve reporting, right?

        Ahhh....I got it now, so China and Cuba have more honest and accurate reporting.

        LOL...you are goofball.

        "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" -Marx

        by Jose Bidenio on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:01:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  you can see the same studies from the UN. (0+ / 0-)

      To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

      by Tanya on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:01:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I wouldn't say that this cable is "erroneous" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GrumpyOldGeek

      What happened is that one anecdote from the cable was not accurate.

      One person, quoted by the American official who created the email, said that Sicko was banned, but Sicko wasn't banned. If the cable accurately quotes what someone said, the cable isn't erroneous. What someone said was erroneous, and the cable accurately relays what they said.

      The cable wasn't trying to educate people on "facts" - it was trying to relay what some people in Cuba were saying.

      So one Cuban who alleged that Sicko was banned was wrong. The cable wasn't "erroneous". It's likely true that someone did say that Sicko was banned.

      So what?

      But I don't see why this is something which can be used to praise WikiLeaks, and that's my issue with this diary.

      The issue here isn't that someone told an anecdote about MM's movie that wasn't accurate. The issue here is that some people failed to use good reading comprehension and instead went with headlines and stories that distort what actually happened.

      Moore says that "WikiLeaks did an amazing thing". Nope.

      He claims that the person who created an email that included multiple stories intended to denigrate Cuba's Healthcare system made up that anecdote. But there's no evidence of that - the anecdote is not correct, but there's nothing that tells us that the person who wrote the email made up that allegation out of thin air.

      We've all seen how people believe something because someone else told them that. We have no idea why someone would have said that Sicko was banned when it really wasn't banned at all. But there's zero evidence that the false meme was created out of thin air by the email writer.

      •  Real journalists have multiple sources and check (0+ / 0-)

        the facts.

        This is evidence that Michael's hero is not such a hero after all. But poor Michael has to blame the nebulous government institution to keep his head from exploding.

        "All people are born alike - except Republicans and Democrats" - Groucho Marx

        by GrumpyOldGeek on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 02:18:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site