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View Diary: I apologize Mr. President (329 comments)

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  •  I think it's you who isn't paying attention (10+ / 0-)

    Obama's state of the union mention came almost a year after Dan Choi made national headlines and Sen Gillibrand made national headlines announcing her plan to hold DADT Senate hearings.

    We can disagree on things, but the timeline is clear, and I personally tend to credit people who go first with being the ones who "lead."

    Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

    by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 02:07:46 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, he spoke out against Gays (8+ / 0-)

      being discriminated against back in 2008.

      "I get up, I walk, I fall down. Meanwhile, I keep dancing." Daniel Hillel

      by Onomastic on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 02:22:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, was he leading then? (4+ / 0-)

        Frank Kameny beat him by 58 years on that account.

        Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

        by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 02:24:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, come on Clark. (4+ / 0-)

          I responded to your comment that said Obama hadn't gotten behind anything until Dan Choi and Senator Guillibrand make national headlines.

          All I'm saying is that it's very apparent that Obama has been against discrimination for years.

          And you throw out a false equivalency.

          Frank Kameny's courage cannot be understated. But how does that fit into this conversation about the President?

          Was he supposed to speak out against discrimination before he was born?

          "I get up, I walk, I fall down. Meanwhile, I keep dancing." Daniel Hillel

          by Onomastic on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 03:30:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  My God, that's stupid! (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jeff Simpson, DWKING, Inland, fou, regster

          I don't think you realize it, Clark, but you just put together an argument for why Dan Choi's activism shouldn't be called "leadership," either.  After all, someone else was doing it first!

          You will say anything to run down this president, but you really jumped the shark on this one.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:36:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fuck you. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            musing85, Alec82

            Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

            by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:41:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, no, Clark. "Fuck You" is dead. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Inland, regster

              Heh.

              Tell me, as you were enjoying the news about the Senate voting to repeal DADT, was your enjoyment interrupted just a little bit by the knowledge that you'd just been proven utterly wrong about a point that you had spent several months strutting around and proclaiming your superiority over?

              Mine wasn't.  Not even a teeny-tiny bit.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:51:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I see no reason to engage with someone (6+ / 0-)

                who just said I'd "say anything" as in lie. We can disagree. But your attack was unwarranted and nasty.

                Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

                by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:58:49 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You shouldn't engage with this jerk. (3+ / 0-)

                  Like so many others here on DK, he is only concerned with trying to get LGBTs to give Obama credit for the potential repeal of DADT.  I doubt he read your recent diary about how this is a victory for a movement, but I can assure you that if he did, it was the first time in his life that he'd ever heard of Frank Kameny, Perry Watkins, or most of the other activists you talked about.

                  And of course, although it will be denied vociferously by those trying to credit Obama rather than activists like Kameny, Matlovich, Choi, and you, homophobia plays a huge role in their attitude.  They deliberately devalue decades of work by LGBT activists so that they can heap praise upon a straight man.  Only straight people (like themselves) can be responsible for something good happening, even when it concerns LGBT rights, and even when it's an issue on which LGBTs have been working since before the president was even born.

                  Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

                  by FogCityJohn on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 08:30:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The last time you called me a homophobe, champ... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    el cid

                    it was because I kept insisting that focusing on Senate passage was a good idea.

                    So I'm not terribly upset that you're still carrying around the same blankey.

                    Art is the handmaid of human good.

                    by joe from Lowell on Tue Dec 21, 2010 at 03:17:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You can't stop, can you? (0+ / 0-)

                      "Same blankey"?  Gee, infantilization of a gay person.  Oh, but I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with unacknowledged homophobia on your part.

                      And your silence on the substance of my comment is deafening.  Straight guys like you will never give credit to the decades of work done by gay activists on this issue.  All you can do is insist on the glorification of a fellow straight man.

                      Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

                      by FogCityJohn on Tue Dec 21, 2010 at 08:48:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I can't stop? YOU can't stop. (0+ / 0-)

                        Every time you've been pwned, every time you don't get what you want, you throw out baseless accusations of bigotry to make yourself feel better.

                        Do the homophobes steal your socks from the dryer, too?

                        Have you considered the possibility that I described you as a child because you, individually, wholly apart from your orientation, act like one?

                        As for the "substantive" part of your comment, there really is no talking to someone who uses baseless accusations like you do.  There's just no conversation to be had.  Regardless of what I wrote, if the argument was going bad for you, you'd just call me a bigot again.  Suffice to say, no, you've got my opinion about the contributions of gay activists over the years completely wrong.

                        But I'm really not interested in having that conversation with someone of your low intellectual honesty and determined defensiveness.

                        Art is the handmaid of human good.

                        by joe from Lowell on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 01:08:42 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  What point was I "strutting around" making? (7+ / 0-)

                Mostly my point was it was a bad idea to kick the can down the road for two years. And it should have been done earlier. And I stand by that, it wasn't "wrong." That the 11th hour hail Mary orchestrated by Lieberman and Collins worked does not mean it was a good idea.

                Was your point, you're so boastful of, that was proven so incontrovertibly correct that it was a masterful plan fail the vote twice  on the Levin's 800 page NDAA then go stand-alone? Was it a great plan to let the NDAA serve as a sacrificial lamb? Do you understand the failure of the NDAA is a tragedy for our troops? No mental health services improvements for them, no pay raises.

                Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

                by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 05:20:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, it does mean it was a good idea. (0+ / 0-)

                  Just to refresh your memory, the point you spent months strutting around making was that Obama's strategy - Congressional repeal - was a pointless fraud, with no chance of success, done only for show, and that the refusal to give up on that route and settle for a half-assed stop-loss order was a demonstration of Obama's awful political sense, his support for maintaining DADT, or both.

                  Of course legislative initiatives are a bumpy road.  That's exactly why you have to keep your head.

                  Since stopping DADT repeal was the only thing holding up the NDAA, and that amendment is now moot, it won't be any trouble to pass it under the new Congress.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Tue Dec 21, 2010 at 03:22:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Looks like Clark just conceded the argument. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fou

              Hannity's America is just South of Sanity.

              by DWKING on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 05:35:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I think you're serious (6+ / 0-)

        but it reads like snark.

        Actually, he spoke out against Gays being discriminated against back in 2008.

        Is that supposed to be remarkable? The Employment Non-Discrimination Act to protect gays from employment discrimination was introduced in 1974. So if you can only trace Obama back to 2008, I'd keep that quiet.

        (In truth, he spoke of support I'm sure since the start of his political career, being in Chicago.)

        Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

        by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 02:27:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  He supported marriage equality (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fou, emsprater, Onomastic

          in 1996, for example. (and didn't really have to, being as he represented Hyde Park).

          •  He supported only civil unions... (5+ / 0-)

            in the campaign.  That's not marriage equality.

            Obama - getting rolled like a chump by mouth-breathers since 2008.

            by teknofyl on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 03:22:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I know (9+ / 0-)

            but that's all really off-topic. The thread branched out from topic of his leadership on DADT. And my premise was Gilibrand certainly took a big leadership role in moving the bill forward in the Senate.

            Obama was a Senator from 2005 which offered him the opportunity to introduce a companion bill for DADT, to Patrick Murphy's bill in the House. He showed no interest in the issue until he pursued the Democratic primary and had to beat Hillary who was promising to repeal don't ask don't tell. DADT repeal had already been adopted as a goal in the official party platform, and had also in fact been promised by Presidential candidate John Kerry in 2004.

            I know my point will be misconstrued. My point merely being he was leading on an issue that had become rather mainstream and held rather widespread.

            He got it done. And he got Gates & Mullen on board, and I thank him for that.

            Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

            by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 03:27:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And Gillibrand was a freshman senator, appointed (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Clarknt67, Onomastic, Chitown Kev

              to her seat by a rather unpopular governor and needing to prove herself worthy of election in her first run.  Even though New York is a fairly liberal state overall, it's not like this was a slam-dunk issue for her.  She took a lead on this, even in the face of the teabagger landslide.  That showed some real conviction.

              They only call it Class War when we fight back.

              by lineatus on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:07:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Everyone has motives (5+ / 0-)

                There were risk and rewards. And the risks where, as you say, she was young, new, unknown, and did not really know how the public and her new Senate colleagues, military leadership & WH would react to her move. Alcee Hastings had tried to move the issue in the House the year before and gotten stopped in his tracks.

                And lets face it, none of the Senators really want to move LGBT issues to the forefront. They'd just as soon kick them down the road for the 224th Congress to vote on. They couldn't have appreciated this newcomer forcing a "difficult" vote. They'd name post offices and give corporations tax cuts all day if left to their own devices.

                But, Gillibrand was vulnerable from the left, and in fact, got rather slammed here at the time of her appointment.

                She shrewdly saw an issue that could offer her the opportunity to do the right thing AND shore up a little left-wing good will.

                And that's fine. That's being a good politician, imo. I'd rather they play to our side than they other.

                Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

                by Scott Wooledge on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:23:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  And then stopped supporting it (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Clarknt67, Chitown Kev

            when he decided he wanted to be more than just an Illinois state senator. That mitigates any credit he might get. (Not to mention the fact that his support was lukewarm at best--and accomplished nothing.)

            •  Well...not lukewarm support (0+ / 0-)

              in the context of 1996, he campaigned against DOMA that year as well.

              And Illinois was not doing gay marriage in 1996 (then again, no state was doing gay marriage in 1996, really)

              Point being this...

              Obama was not as generalized about "gays being discriminated against" as Onomastic would lead us to believe; he had very specific policy positions and always has. For the record, marriage equality is the only one that he's backed away from for, as you say, wider political ambitions.

              •  Yes, lukewarm (0+ / 0-)

                He "campaigned on" it to the extent that he mentioned that he supported it. He didn't actually try to do anything to bring it about. He was never an original sponsor of any gay-related legislation while he was in the General Assembly--he only ever signed on to someone else's bills: and then those bills inevitably died in committee.

                •  Uh, in 1996 (0+ / 0-)

                  There weren't all that many gays that had signed on to gay marriage.

                  For that matter, gays in Illinois still aren't pushing all that hard about marriage, to be honest about it.

                  Anyway, clark was right in that this was an unnecessary digression; my only point was that he was more specific than simply saying that one shouldn't discriminate against gays.

          •  Yup, and then he reversed himself. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            musing85, joanneleon, Chitown Kev

            By the way - Hyde Park is a pretty liberal place.  I know what the "chitown" stands for in your KOS name - you can probably guess what the "HP" stands for in mine ...

            My mom wrote a great book on the church & gay marriage - buy it here! http://www.ermalouroller.com/

            by hpchicago on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 04:53:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, Hyde Park is very liberal (0+ / 0-)

              (although it's not the People's Republic of Rogers Park).

              My point there was it's not exactly a gayborhood (although there are some gays who live there to be sure, but nothing like Lakeview, Andersonville, or even Edgewater and the People's Republic).

              I've heard some people claim that Obama held that position to get gay votes but...there ain't that many gay votes in Hyde Park (liberal votes, yes)

              •  there are probably more (0+ / 0-)

                gay votes than you think there.  U of C, of course, is there.  And I think there's a  substantial gay (but almost all African American) vote.

                Besides, he knew he was going to run for Senator - and lots of gay votes in Illinois.  

                My mom wrote a great book on the church & gay marriage - buy it here! http://www.ermalouroller.com/

                by hpchicago on Mon Dec 20, 2010 at 07:13:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

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