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View Diary: History of Corporations Part 14 (42 comments)

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  •  the book version will (8+ / 0-)

    probably be available in March or April.

    •  Excellent work (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      trashablanca, bnasley, JDog42

      you've done--thanks for it.

      •  information is a weapon-- (3+ / 0-)

        and I want every progressive to be well-armed.

        ;)

        Fighting the supranationals on the global level will be the biggest fight in human history--much larger than the American labor movement or civil rights movement. It will be long and hard and, likely, extremely bloody.  But it must be done.  There simply is no other choice.

        •  I've just sent you an e-mail, (0+ / 0-)

          I'm wondering if we might discuss the Article V Convention as solution to all you've articulated--perhaps even if you might include some information about it in your book.

          •  alas, amending the constitution won't help (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grollen, trashablanca, bnasley

            Like the whole "repeal Citizens United" movement, it is just a band-aid that doesn't really help anything. The entire point of the book is that ANY nation-based solution, from whatever nation, is no longer enough--the corporations are far beyond that. They are SUPRA-national, and national laws or constitutions don't mean anything to them anymore. They can play the entire global chessboard at will, and pick up and move their pieces anywhere they feel like in order to avoid anything the US government does--the government only controls a few squares on the chess board, but the corporados control them ALL.

            If we want to reform the rules that now govern us, the ONLY place that matters anymore is to change the terms of the international trade agreements themselves, to include "fair trade" protections. That cannot be done by any individual nation (including us). It can only be done by a coalition of ALL nations.

            The corporations laugh at national governments.  If we continue to fight them at the mere national level, they will continue to stomp us into the dirt, one nation at a time.

            We MUST become international and global. That is where corporate power lies, and that is the only place we cna fight that power effectively.

            •  Is it at all possible (0+ / 0-)

              your position is erroneous? I can make an agrument how it is, and I can back it up with fact, logic, and reason. Do you care to hear it out?

              •  fire away (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NoMoreLies, trashablanca

                Sure, I can be wrong. I make no claim to be infallible. (shrug) But alas, what I say here is not a matter of ideology or wishful thinking--it is cold hard reality.  I don't create reality--I only describe it.  And the reality is that "nations" (even ours) no longer matter to the corporados. They are bigger, richer and stronger than any nation (including ours).

                So feel free to tell us what your proposed constitutional solution is. Make sure, though, that you explain how we can stop Megaglobalcorp Inc from just packing up their entire operation and moving it (and everyone's jobs) to Bangladesh if they don't like the constitutional amendments we pass.

                The only way we can subject the corporados to ANY laws now is if every nation has the same laws. Otherwise they will simply move away from any nation's laws that they don't like.

                That is why every nation-based "solution" for the past three decades has been nothing more than mosquito bites to the corporados.

                •  I'm just at work right now (0+ / 0-)

                  so allow me time to compose a reply. When examined closely, I believe I can show your postion to be invalid. Not saying that to be rude, but simply intellect to intellect--if I was wrong about something--and especially something as important as this (as if there is anything more important)--I would want to know.

                  •  I await (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    trashablanca

                    But since we've been trying nation-based "solutions" for 30 years now and have fallen flat every time, I'm sure you'll forgive me if I'm thinking this is just going to be more patriotic-based "buy American" and "protect American jobs" that has already failed abjectly every time it's been tried.

                  •  and if you would . . . (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    trashablanca

                    I'd like to hear why, in your opinion, the only political movement so far that HAS been able to successfully stop the supranational corporate agenda (the G20+ bloc within WTO) was able to do it without changing any national laws or any national constitutions.

                    •  Please do (0+ / 0-)

                      name that movement, and articulate/quantify it so I can use it as a tool in my reply, because there are fundamentals in regards to the human condition and existence which are immutable, and putting a name on such a movement will allow me to reorient how we think about the problem.

                      •  it's in the diary series (0+ / 0-)

                        The G20+ bloc is a coalition of small nations within the World Trade Organization that successfully ended efforts to expand the jurisdiction of the WTO.

                        Alas for us, they are not on our side.  Nevertheless, they remain the ONLY movement that has been able to successfully stop the corporate agenda dead in its tracks, and they now hold decisive power within WTO. Nothing happens now without their say-so.

                        One of the problems with focusing on a narrowly-nationalistic view, as we see, is that we become blind to the things that are happening in the rest of the world where the majority of people live. That is yet another reason why all the various "America first" and "Buy American" and "protect American jobs" movements have fallen flat on their face. The world no longer revolves around the United States of America. Indeed, much of the rest of the world is now going on merrily without us. The corporados already recognize that reality.  It's time we do, too.

                      •  may I suggest that you read the entire series (0+ / 0-)

                        or at least the last six parts of it, before you respond.

                        If your analysis doesn't take the G20+ (or the death of the IMF and the rise of the Banco del Sur, or the American corporate opposition to the neocons AND to the "Buy American" provision in the Stimulus Bill) into consideration (and indeed you do not ever seem to have even heard of G20+), then I respectfully submit that your analysis has no connection to reality.

                        •  I've been at this a long time, (0+ / 0-)

                          and if you demmand I read each chapter in order to engage, I will. Though what I'd rather do is call it Factor X, and have that as part of our exchange. If you could in so many words articulate Factor X--what you mentioned above--then I can reply again after I return home, as I'm just leaving work now.

                          As it stands I'm assuming Factor X is simply a group of people's organized resistance. If that is an incorrect assumption please let me know.

                          •  I can't explain the past 30 years of (0+ / 0-)

                            anti-corporate history in two sentences.

                            Please read the diary series.

                          •  You don't need to (0+ / 0-)

                            as it's obvious, and in fact you've already stated it in less than a sentence--a political movement or movements have been successful in stopping the corporate agenda in their realm. Let's call that Factor X, OK? To add that said movement(s) had nothing to do with changing national/constitutional laws dismisses out of hand my position, not to mention contradicts the overall statement that movements have been successful, because the WTO still exists and is stronger than ever. Thus it's more precise to state that battles have been won, but not the war. I'm talking about how to win the war. We're talking about Factor X--organized resistance. You lay out how battles have been won, I'm set to explain how the war can be won. You still with me?

                          •  with all due respect (0+ / 0-)

                            you have no idea what you are discussing. Which means any "solution" you have is utterly disconnected from reality.

                            Please take the time to understand the topic. It is very important.

                          •  ... (0+ / 0-)

                            The corporados already recognize that reality.  It's time we do, too.

                            In a nutshell, my position is, if we do recognize that here in America, and suddenly side with the G20, what would the world and the WTO look like then? Would not there be the possiblity and probability of a world without a WTO as it exists and functions today?

                          •  nope, not a chance (0+ / 0-)

                            In a nutshell, my position is, if we do recognize that here in America, and suddenly side with the G20, what would the world and the WTO look like then? Would not there be the possiblity and probability of a world without a WTO as it exists and functions today?

                            Nobody anywhere is fighting to eliminate the WTO--not the G20+, not the labor unions, not the American corporations, not any government--nobody. Well, nobody but the American nationalists and the neocons--and nobody else supports them.

                            Please take the time to learn about the topic.  It is very important.

                          •  I understand (0+ / 0-)

                            your position that it appears I don't know what I'm talking about, but if you dismiss me out of hand, and we don't find the starting point of the discourse.

                            What if the G20 stopping the WTO agenda dead in its tracks was simply a dialectic to synthesize WTO power in its next step forward to its inevitable conclusion?

                            It's doesn't matter if nobody anywhere is fighting to eliminate the WTO. What if America removed itself from the WTO altogether? Or led a global effort to completely reform it? Would that not create a new equation?

                          •  no, it would not (0+ / 0-)

                            America doesn't hold the power within WTO---G20+ does. The world no longer revolves around the USA.

                            And if you want to just play the "what if" game, then you are, as I suspected, not connected to the reality. (shrug)

                          •  by the way (0+ / 0-)

                            It's not that you APPEAR not to know anything about the topic--you plainly DON'T.  You have no idea what G20+ is (you can't even accurately repeat its name), and no idea how WTO is set up or how it works.

                            So please take the time to learn about the topic.

                            Your magic-bullet "constitutional amendment convention" campaign is just an utter waste of time if you don't even understand what it is you are fighting against.

                          •  I'm not playing a what if game, (0+ / 0-)

                            I asked straight up what things look like if the US removed itself or campaigned against the WTO.

                            If you cannot or will not consider such an idea then I guess the conversation is dead.

                            American culture dominates world culture, Disney is putting its footprint all over the world--including China. So to say the world no longer revolves around the USA is, if not a completely bogus statement, certainly one with bliners on.

                            Multinationals are not going to pick up and leave America when its celebrity in the minds of people across the globe, in terms of cool and elan, is still very much alive.

                            Please consider there are things you haven't considered. And if you really think changing the way things are is important, I'd think you'd at least humor an WTO-ignorant person like myself for a moment. Do you know what the Article V Conveniton and its constitutional process entails? If America changed overnight, everything would change. Including the WTO.

                          •  you are quite wrong (0+ / 0-)

                            The world does not revolve around the USA anymore. We're just another debtor country.

                            Your magic-bullet Constitutional Convention would not change the WTO in the slightest.

                            Legally, WTO has the authority to unilaterally alter the US Constitution.  Not the other way around.

                          •  The law is not what the few say it is, (0+ / 0-)

                            but what the majority say it is. That statement is based on all politcal history. You seem not to know what sovereign power is, and certainly what that means here in America. Your perception is that the WTO has legal authority, but legal authority is dynamic and can change.

                            Based on all you've said so far in comments above I submit that you actually have things backwards. The USA is unique among all nations, and nation-based solutions of the past thirty years have never involved the convention clause of the United States Constitution.

                            I ask again, do you know what that process entails--not to mention the politcal dynamic it brings into existence? If you're perception of the convention clause is like most folks, then again, we're dead in the water in terms of intellectual discourse. Do you know what happens after the Article V Convention call is issued by Congress? If not, would you like to know?

                          •  sovereign power no longer exists (0+ / 0-)

                            WTO is above national sovereignty. It has already modified Mexico's Constitutionb, and it can modify any amendment you manage to pass, too.

                            Sorry if the American Nationalists don't like that, but alas, there's not a damn thing they can do about it.  (shrug)

                          •  Is it at all possible you're wrong? (0+ / 0-)

                            I mean, is that possible? Sovereign power is like a stop sign, it can be ignored, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or more precisely, people can be conditioned to believe it doesn't exist by late world events, but that doesn't mean it can't be reactivated. If you believe it no longer exists, and you believe you're irrefutably correct in that, then again, the discussion is dead. I ask again, do you know what happens once the convention call is issued? It's a reactivation of sovereign power. It's why that clause is part of the Constitution, and unless and until it's issued your book will be nothing but one more of many chronicles of how the unviverse may end in a whimper. One the other hand you can get informed about how to prevent that. Humor me, tell what you think happens after the convention call is issued.

                          •  no (0+ / 0-)

                            The WTO has legal authority to order the US Constitution altered--as it already did with Mexico's Constitution.

                            That is not a matter of opinion or ideology or being "conditioned".  It is a simple inescapable fact. WTO has legal authority to alter the US Constitution.  The US Constitution has no legal authority to alter WTO. The "sovereign power"you are so much in love with, doesn't exist anymore.

                            So anything that your convention manages to produce (assuming it can then actually pass an amendment), is subject to approval by the WTO.  WTO has legal authority above that of any country's constitution.  Whether you like it or not.

                          •  OK (0+ / 0-)

                            Then what you're asking is how do we work under the legal authority of the WTO--not how do we revoke said authority? I was under the impression you wanted to fight the authority of the WTO.

                          •  what I want doesn't matter (0+ / 0-)

                            WTO is there and it's not going away, whether I like it or not---and the US doesn't have the ability to make it go away even if you pass any amendment you like, whether we like it or not. Any amendment you pass that impacts WTO will simply be ruled illegal and altered by WTO--and any amendment that does not impact WTO is utterly irrelevant.

                            That is a simple fact of life.

                            As I said in the diary, it simply is no longer a question of whether there SHOULD be a world government--there already is. The only question remaining is whether we want it to become democratic, or allow it to remain undemocratic.

                            There have been NO nation-based actions that have stopped the corporate agenda.  Not a one.  So I'm more than skeptical that your constitutional amendment scheme -- whatever amendment you end up managing to pass if you manage to pass any at all--will do any better.

                            The ONLY movement that has so far successfully stimied the WTO has been the G20+ bloc---and it is not nation-based.

                            I would rather build on that success, than continue to depend on nation-based "solutions" which have all consistently failed.

                          •  You simply have not thought (0+ / 0-)

                            deeply enough about things, not to mention even inquired what I'm actually talking about. You've simply assumed you know what I'm talking about. You've said repeatedly--learn about the WTO, it's very important. How about learn how to alter (democratize) or abolish the WTO?

                            You will admit that there have been reformations/revolutions throughout history, correct? What makes you think the WTO is untouchable and outside history or subject to change?

                            You seem to forget that the vast majority of Americans have no idea what the WTO is. Why? Because corporate interests control popular information and are purposefully not informing them about what it is and what it's doing.

                            It would seem to me, having said what you have, that you would be curious to know what exactly I'm proposing, and why the idea shows your position to be bogus. You've told me my idea is bogus, but you don't even know what my idea is. In other words, what you're calling bogus is actually just an ignorant perception conjured in your own mind.

                            The convention itself is not what's important, it's the constitutional process of convoking one, and holding elections for delegates. That process is what wrenches open political discourse, which is precisely what the WTO does not want to have happen. It would rather remain as it is, an obscure acronym.

                            In addition to that, let's say you campaigned to be a delegate. Your campaign will be about the effects of the WTO. Does a corrupt accountant want an outside audit? No.

                            If 75% of Americans were suddenly made aware that the WTO can re-write the Constitution, you don't think that would affect how things unfold from here?

                          •  well have at it and (0+ / 0-)

                            enjoy yourself.

                            Since no nation-based solution has ever accomplished anything, I doubt yours will either.  But have fun trying.  (shrug)

                            You have no understanding at all what it is you are fighting against.  Not a clue.  Reality is going to smack you very very hard.

                          •  As I said, (0+ / 0-)

                            no nation-based solution has ever involved the Article V Convention. You don't know what it is, so have never been able to examine it properly, yet go around telling people you want to alter how the WTO operates. When someone professes to want something, then ignores what will actually get it, colors them stupid, insincere, or a hypocrite.

                            I know well what the fight's about--the same thing it's always been about: intituionalized corruption devolving into tyranny, totalitarianism. And the thing that's always dismantled such has always been raising consciousness to a tipping-point for change. And it's not my solution. I didn't create humanity, nor did I cause American culture to be dominant, nor did I write the Constitution.

                            When you place all facts on the table, objectively there's nothing but a federal convention here in America which can break the current agenda of the WTO.

                            You won't look into it and examine it because you fear what I'm saying is true, and then you'll have to live with the conscious knowledge you're hypocrite and part of the problem, instead living how you do now--believing you're part of the solution for articulating what few people know.

                            Someone can witness a murder and write about it, but if they don't do anything to bring the murderer to justice, then what?

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