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View Diary: Rachel Maddow on dadt repeal. (138 comments)

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  •  And more boostrapping. (5+ / 0-)

    And broke promises on iraq and afghan, we're not leaving.

    Your prediction of the future betrayals, no doubt, based on the past betrayals .... that don't exist.

    Like I said, I'm waiting and seeing.

    Well, no.  You aren't waiting and seeing on Iraq and Afghanistan.  You're quick to declare that OBama will do something bad in the future, but everything good in the present or past that might possibly be tainted by any future vaction, however unlikely like a veto, you wait and see.  

    It's a method of criticizing Obama for everything that hasn't happened while refusing to credit him for anything that has actually happened.

    It's pretty transparent, but that said, if you put it in a diary I'm sure it would make the rec list.  It does three or four times a day.

    Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

    by Inland on Tue Dec 21, 2010 at 07:24:14 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  let him prove me wrong (0+ / 0-)

      but come on it's a safe bet that we don't leave iraq or afghanistan any time soon. Unlike vietnam, there's too much value in the land there.

      •  you mean, prove you wrong again. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sagittarius, StepLeftStepForward

        You don't seem to care that your analysis is leading you to say things that are wrong, and is tailored to be useless.  That's fine.  Just as long as you know.

        Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

        by Inland on Tue Dec 21, 2010 at 07:53:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  where else was I proven wrong (0+ / 0-)

          not sure what we're even talking about.

          •  (.......) (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StepLeftStepForward

            so the under 250 k tax cut was a betrayl. And broke promises on iraq and afghan,

            Do I have to look up a comment from you accusing Obama of wanting to kill DADT repeal?  Because I don't know why I have to prove everything to you, and you can just sit back and refuse to believe the stuff that's right in front of your face.

            Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

            by Inland on Tue Dec 21, 2010 at 08:10:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  they are betrayls (0+ / 0-)

              and obama's justice dept fought against the log cabins dadt suit.

              •  Seriously? (2+ / 0-)

                There's a difference between a skirmish and the whole war.

                I'm in the military. This affects me. And I'm glad the President pushed this the way it was pushed.

                •  we'll be in the war (0+ / 0-)

                  until every drop of oil is out of the ground, don't be naive.

                  •  Um (3+ / 0-)

                    I'm definitely not naive about our country's actual war issues. And I'm definitely not a fan. I'm not the same person I was when I joined. I also have no idea what this has to do with the political issue surrounding repeal of DADT.

                    As much as it sucks to wait for this to happen legislatively, I do think it's the right thing to do. This year has been an emotional roller coaster over this issue, and it's finally coming to end, and I'm going to celebrate.

                    •  doesn't have to do with dadt (0+ / 0-)

                      but me and someone else got to talking about other general issues.

                      •  House of Gin, (0+ / 0-)

                        Are you young? How many administrations have you followed in your lifetime?

                        •  why does that matter (0+ / 0-)

                          just because past administrations were corrupt doesn't mean we excuse it from Obama.

                          •  It's not about being corrupt. (0+ / 0-)

                            It's about what I perceive, from your comments across this blog, as political naivete. From your comments, I gather that you really have no idea what this country - and the political system - has undergone during the last three decades of essentially Republican rule. I get the feeling that you really have a very limited perspective and don't know much about how progress is made in the system we have.

                            And so I think you are young and a novice to US politics. I don't mean that as a slam - everyone has to start somewhere. If I am wrong and you have been around for awhile and have witnessed more than I think you have, forgive me for saying this, but I think your expectations of this administration are ridiculously high and unrealistic.

                          •  I'm probably older than you (0+ / 0-)

                            which doesn't make me smarter of course.

                            This country will keep moving right unless we pressure Obama and dems to move left. That's the lesson you should learn from all of the disappointments of the years, not to capitulate more.

                          •  Who knows who is older or smarter. (0+ / 0-)

                            And who cares and that's not the point anyway.

                            This country will keep moving right unless we pressure Obama and dems to move left.

                            So, we have a disagreement over which direction we are headed. This, I do not get: Our country has been heading right since the seventies, and especially since 1980. We started heading left again the day this administration took office - can you honestly deny that? I'm not saying fast enough, drastically enough, or by leaps and bounds, but we are definitely not continuing further along the rightward trajectory - and I am talking about on all fronts (not just economic-policy-wise).

                            If you insist that we are still headed to the right, then I just don't know what to say. Except maybe try to look at the big picture and the history of progressive legislation (Democratic/Liberal accomplishments) and movements and their struggles along the way.

                            Now, as for the second part of your statement -

                            This country will keep moving right unless we pressure Obama and dems to move left.

                            I wholeheartedly agree that we need to keep pushing Obama and Dems to move left. I'm right there with you, trust me. But I see Obama as an ally in this rather than an enemy.

                            As for corruption in politics, in the sausage-making process of legislation, and the legislative branch (if you believe there is corruption in the executive branch, I'd like to know what specifically) - three words: Campaign Finance Reform.

                            I have more to say but this is getting long and I'm tired of typing. I'm just trying to work out where you - and your constant disappointment - is coming from. I've read lots of your comments and cannot recall one positive, celebratory one (could have missed them, of course). So I have wondered about you for ahwile.

                          •  yes I honestly deny that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            StepLeftStepForward

                            Take for example DADT, a move to the left right? I mean the fact that it was just repealed is a move to the left. How many people does that effect? How many gays, lesbians are in the military, how many will join now that wouldn't have before? Number in the thousands probably?

                            I'll celebrate that.

                            But how many people are unemployed right now? In the millions. We need a govt jobs program, and don't tell me that is unrealistic, maybe with a house full of repubs it is but the house is only full of repubs because dems didn't do a jobs program, shellacking ocurred because the economy is so bad. This dem disappointment outweighs good things like DADT repeal because of the ammount of people it effects.

                            Social security cuts will soon be something that also outweighs the good Obama has done.

                          •  Okay. (0+ / 0-)

                            So you agree that DADT is a move to the left but won't help many people. That's true but it's a huge political victory for progressivism, civil rights, and liberal values, as well. It has both practical and symbolic value. We can't turn back from it (unless Republicans are allowed to regain complete control in the near future, and even then it will be hard, but I digress.)

                            So in that we have moved left. I have lots of other examples that do help groups of real people who have been waiting for justice for too long and who were given it from this administration and congress - from Democrats. I won't list them all but to name a few - Tribal Justice Act, Pigford Settlement/Claims Act, Fair Sentencing Act, Lily Ledbetter Act. These are all victories for liberal, progressive and Democratic values. And there are more.

                            But you are most concerned with jobs. Okay, your despair is starting to make more sense to me. In hindsight (mine), I think the administration should have focused like a laser on jobs from Day 1. President Obama himself has admitted that he made a mistake spending less time on that. But it isn't like they totally ignored it either. They took a huge risk and saved the US auto industry (and Michigan still voted for the Rethugs!!!) for chrissakes. Money in the stimulus went to green technologies and saved and created jobs across the country. Not enough, for sure, but you can't deny that it didn't help, either.

                            People wanted a massive jobs program and didn't get it. Well, tough luck. That doesn't wipe out all the other accomplishments.

                            We're in a worldwide recession. Over the last 30 years, our traditional industries and manufacturing base have been utterly destroyed, as have our labor laws and unions, schools and education... It is just a lot to fix in two short years.

                            But yeah, I get the disappointment over jobs, especially if you are unemployed yourself. But I would just say: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. We've been down that road before and it just leads to Republican rule. Which I don't believe our nation can withstand again - at least not for another 16 years.

                            Be well.

                          •  repub rule (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            StepLeftStepForward

                            Things like DADT repeal and lily ledbetter are great and wouldn't happen if repubs were in charge of all three branches. But repubs will be in charge of all three branches soon if the economy doesn't improve. So unless you want repubs in power to overturn things like that, we have to somehow figure out a way for dems to fix the economy. How to do that with repubs holding the house? Good question, may be impossible.

                            Now Obama probably will win in 2012 even if unemployment doesn't decline, which there it is unlikely to do. So what happens from 2012 to 2016? I mean where is the possibility of a jobs program in there? I'm worried the economy keeps getting worse, the system is broken but Obama is trying to prop up the status quo with bailouts and use austerity on the rest of us to pay for it. I'm worried we'll be living in a lawless wild west unless something important changes, yes I think the stakes are that high.

                          •  I hear you. And I'm quite worried too. (0+ / 0-)

                            Time will tell whether Obama will win with or without an improved economy. I am quite certain he will one way or another, though it will not be easy to go up against the effects of CU. The corporations and the wealthy - the power-holders - are not going to give up without a struggle and 2012 is going to be like nothing we've ever seen. Hold on for the ride!

                            From my perspective (I live in Europe, btw), the economy is not going to rapidly improve no matter what and be restored to the level driven by the bubble economies of lore. If it did, I'd actually believe we were on the wrong track - stockmarket bubble, dotcom bubble, housing bubble - all of those have, in combo with the declines I mentioned above, really screwed Americans.

                            The problems we have are massive, deep and not easily fixed. We lag really, really, really far behind in education. That's a huge problem in today's world. Really huge. In general, Americans can't compete in the world - because of their shitty educations (and their addiction to crappy teevee and entertainment!), our expensive health care, our expensive higher education. It's fucked. In most of Europe, a college graduate has no debts and is guaranteed health care, whether they work or not. Grrr. I'm digressing.

                            I want to say this: I do believe Americans are going to have to learn to live with less for awhile. But I also believe Obama is putting us on back on track - the focus on greentech will be our savior. I welcome that revolution with open arms.

                            I hope we will some more surprises by the DOJ in the near future re prosecutions of banksters and the like. I don't think they are just sitting around, not looking into stuff. Investigations take time. And the timing of announcements is also important.

                            I probably rambled. Sorry.

                          •  So what happens from 2012 to 2016? (0+ / 0-)

                            That all depends on if we let the friggin Republicans take control of the House and Senate. These recent victories (it's insane how much is getting done in the very last few days of this lame-duck session! Harry's kickin' ass, IMO. Finally!) MUST BE CELEBRATED BY DEMOCRATS AND PROGRESSIVES LOUD AND CLEAR. The general public needs to know that WE did it. IMO, if we on the left continue to downplay these big liberal victories and scream "Not enough!", we will lose. I am not suggesting we don't press for more!

                            I'm just saying that the Left should not be perpetuating the "Democrats are weak!" "Democrats are worthless!" "Congress/Government/Obama/Democrats Suck!" memes. Let the Right do their own dirty work.

                            Call out specific policies and specific Democrats, absolutely. But not the party, the government, or congress in general. Let the libertarians push that shit. We need to make the public see that Democratic values and policies work, that Democrats make government work for them. If we had a real majority in the Senate (or had killed the damn filibuster!!!!), we would see a helluva lot more done on all fronts, jobs and economy included.

                            Just my 2 cents :)

                          •  only unemployment decreasing (0+ / 0-)

                            will keep repubs out of the house and senate. Nothing less. Things like DADT just aren't enough to get excited about. Most of the dem base is not rich. Tell an unemployed guy that dadt was repealed. A non teabagger type, a dem base guy that supports civil rights. He just won't be excited to vote dem because he's still unemployed at the end of the day.

                            The party, dem party in general, needs to be called out, because it is hopelessly corrupt. Unemployment is at crisis, depression level numbers. Ignoring it is treasonous. Of course we can expect that from repubs but from dems?

                          •  Depression-level unemployment? (0+ / 0-)

                            According to whom? Do you have a graph?

                            That sounds like a whole lot of hyperbole to me. Because from the sources I checked, that is highly inaccurate.

                          •  if you go by U6 of 17% (0+ / 0-)

                            that is close enough to depression era of 25% but keep in mind that the way they calculate the data is not the same, if you go by the old way of calculating the datat unemployment right now is 22%.

                            http://www.shadowstats.com/...

                    •  House of Gin is a victim. (0+ / 0-)

                      House of Gin seems to wallow in betrayl [sic] so he/she is always betrayed by future (impending) betrayls [sic].

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