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View Diary: An Executive Order Allowing for Indefinite Detention ? (311 comments)

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  •  Referring to, amongst other things, (30+ / 3-)

    The Guantánamo "Suicides" . . . where three innocent kids (and we know they were innocent because they had been cleared for release already) were suicided.

    It's really quite a horrifying story.  But perhaps white males don't take it seriously because this type of thing doesn't happen to them  Yet, anyways.

    •  HR'ed for blatant racism. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluicebank, strangedemocracy

      "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

      by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 08:51:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very well, blatant racism should be (15+ / 0-)

        hidden no doubt.

        However, as a public service could you kindly point out exactly what I said that was blatantly racist so I could avoid making the same mistake in the future?

        •  Seriously? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bluicebank, strangedemocracy

          But perhaps white males don't take it seriously because this type of thing doesn't happen to them.

          "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

          by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 08:55:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think it was your point about white males, (8+ / 0-)

          and after seeing his comment, I think it is very problematic to lump all white males together. I know that there are white males who have fought against the torture regime.

          Your point about the "suicides" is VERY important, and I wish you has stopped there.

                    Sadly,
                    Heather

          Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it to whom.

          by Chacounne on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 08:59:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why not put the blame where the blame lies? (6+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            cdreid, zedaker, RenMin, kyeo, Earth Ling, Imhotepsings
            Hidden by:
            Guinho

            As a group, white males are the most powerful faction in this country, and if they gave a damn about torture, it very likely would end.

            And there are plenty of statistics out there to back me up - or maybe I should have blamed religious groups?

            White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

            link

            •  Perhaps you shouldn't be thread-jacking a very (0+ / 0-)

              important diary with your own agenda.  Go write your own diary.

              Good day to you, sir.

              "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

              by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 09:02:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Me? It was you chimed in with (6+ / 0-)

                ridiculous claims of racism against white people (if that's even possible in today's America !?!?!).

                •  Puh-leaze. (0+ / 0-)

                  You're not one of those who thinks only white people can be racist, are you?  If so, your credibility on the subject is zero.

                  "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                  by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:16:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Right (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lost Left Coaster

                    Because centuries of discrimination against people of color is TOTALLY COMPARABLE to someone making a snide comment about white people on the internet. You're a true crusader for justice, sir.

                    •  And the sun will explode one day. (0+ / 0-)

                      I see your hyperbole and raise you.

                      I suppose you're saying that racism is okay, depending on who's doing it.  Maybe in your world.

                      "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                      by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:28:22 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Who's threadjacking now? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyeo

                        Seriously, dude. You've made your point.

                        "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

                        by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:31:24 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  And in your world (0+ / 0-)

                        a mean comment or too about white people is totally equivalent to experiencing institutionalized discrimination every single day

                        keep on sticking up for the rights of white people everywhere

                        I think you will find that it is you who is racism

                        •  You're trying to have it both ways. (0+ / 0-)

                          "It's bad when one group does it, but okay when another group does it."  And when you're called out for the hypocrisy you try defending it with hyperbole and generalizations:

                          keep on sticking up for the rights of white people everywhere

                          ...is a lie and you know it.  Or you should, unless you actually believe it IS okay for one group to engage in conduct that would be totally unacceptable from the other group.  Which, by the way, still makes my point.

                          "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                          by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:38:59 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Please (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MGK, geomoo, strangedemocracy

                  I'm Middle Eastern, and we are considered to be white.  

                  And the people who are challenging such things in the courts?  The ACLU, which is staffed with white men.

                  And the prejudices against Middle Easterners in the US doesn't just come from those of European ancestry.  

                  •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

                    Bill O'Reilly's audience considers you to be white?

                    Somehow, I suspect not (and I say that as a unproud member of his key demographic viewership).

                    •  Honestly, the tension is over religion (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      MGK, geomoo, strangedemocracy, kyeo

                      not race.  A lot of Arab Christians are completely fine with what's going on.   (The only Arab in Congress is fine with this program.)  Americans from European backgrounds are FAR from the only ones who are OK with torturing or killing Muslim Middle Easterners.  (Case in point: Barack Obama.)  Claiming that only "white" people hate us is a huge, huge stretch.  And it's not just Bill O'Reilly's audience that's OK with this.  

                      Demographically, we're considered "white."  Yes, it's slightly ridiculous, but there it is.  And frankly, most people wouldn't know a Middle Easterner unless we're wearing ethnic garb.  Most people think my father is Mexican because of his skin tone.  People don't know what to think of my lighter-skinned relatives.

              •  What? (9+ / 0-)

                He's not threadjacking. There wouldn't be a discussion here if there hadn't been a dubious HR.

                "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

                by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 09:14:34 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  we shoot down your racism HR and (6+ / 0-)

                you switch to threadjacking in order to justify your own bad HR? it was your bad HR that was threadjacking.

                own the bad HR and get over it.

                blink-- pale cold

                by zedaker on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 09:52:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Okay, went to lunch - back now. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rock the ground

                  Nothing dubious about the racism claim.  To claim that white people can't understand this because of their race is flat-out racism.  Turn that statement around and look at it the other way:  What would be the reaction if somebody had said black people can't understand a concept purely because they're black.  Would you think that's okay, or would you think it racist?  Hint:  It would be racist.

                  "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                  by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:11:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  no it fucking wouldn't! (4+ / 0-)

                    mention of skin color does not make a statement racist. especially when that mention is used to point out a certain type of white privilege.

                    your comment is simply reactionary and incorrect.

                    blink-- pale cold

                    by zedaker on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:17:00 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Claiming that somebody can't understand (3+ / 0-)

                      something purely on the basis of skin color DOES make it racist.  You can deny that all you want, but it's a simple fact.

                      I repeat:  If somebody were to claim that all African Americans are unable to understand something BECAUSE they're African American, what would be your reaction?

                      "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                      by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:22:24 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  this is a racist society. (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Roadbed Guy, OHdog, kyeo, lunachickie

                        there is no getting around that. racism is a social construct designed to steer benefits to the ruling powers. in this country that means, first and foremost, white males with lots of money. so as a comment on white privilege he was absolutely correct. he did not say all white males are bigots, which is what you seem to think he said.

                        if you don't get that then all you do is display your own incomplete understanding of what racism is. he may have utilized a stereotype, but even that isn't always wrong, especially in this case where he is talking about the power class in a racist society where EVERYONE is inculcated and enculturated from birth in the that racism either as someone that benefits from it or as someone victimized by it.

                        blink-- pale cold

                        by zedaker on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:41:22 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Pay attention. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          geomoo, strangedemocracy

                          I've never said this isn't a racist society.  Ever.  And frankly, I agree with that whole "white privilege" thing.  You know nothing about me, and have no way of judging the veracity - or background - of the statement, but read my comment history if you want.  You'll not find anything saying otherwise, and if you dig deeply enough you'll learn just how much I do get it.  Asked and answered, as they say.

                          What you will find, if you dig deeply enough, is my speaking out about this kind of crap in whatever form it takes.  There is a small subset of people on DKos who seem to feel it's perfectly fine to lump all "white people" into one large, amorphous "privileged" category consisting of nothing but racists.  The OP - at least in this thread - seems to be one of those.  That attitude is unacceptable from anybody, for the simple reason that it's utterly and demonstrably false.

                          And here you are, defending the use of stereotypes by one group while saying it's wrong for the other.  How is that acceptable?

                          "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                          by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:50:10 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you misinterpreted his statement. (4+ / 0-)

                    Apparently no one else saw racism in his statement.  He made a valid point.  When we see people who look like (the) Dick Cheney in Gitmo, then his point probably wouldn't make sense.  Anyway, I uprated as well because I don't think your point was valid.

                    •  Well, I saw racism in the statement. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zedaker, IndieGuy, Blizzard

                      And I agree with him that, given the environment around dkos lately, it's worth pointing it out.

                      I'll add, what is possibly gained by bringing in the issue of race?  Sure, if you think it's racism that explains the new American empire, operating without the constraint of law, then the remark is pertinent.  And in that case, the objection is pertinent as well, because I don't think racism explains who is in Guantanamo and who is not--profit is the explanation for that.

                      In addition to being racist, in the opinion of at least two people, the remark clouds the issue, as this comment thread makes plane.  Just as race often clouds the issue wrt the current world-wide attack on the poor.  Racism is rampant, but dragging race into every discussion is no solution.  If anyone white person feels safe from being imprisoned indefinitely without trial in the new America, then they are delusional.

                      How many hours did Scooter Libby spend in solitary confinement?

                      by geomoo on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 11:44:09 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are right as well. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        geomoo

                        I see your side.  I agree that it was unnecessary to bring race into it, but I didn't make the original comment. I absolutely agree with you about imprisonment in the new America.  It can and most likely will be an equal opportunity incarcerator.  But I don't want to belabor this any longer on this important thread.  Thanks for your comment.

                        •  Thank you, Blizzard. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Blizzard

                          My wife is pulling me away from the computer, and she is correct.  I need to do Christmas prep with her.  I need to get off this debilitating blog treadmill.  How wonderful that I come by to check one last time and find a thoughtful, respectful reply.  Your decency has had a significant impact on making my day feel better.

                          Merry Christmas to you.  Or whatever merry celebration you care to have.

                          How many hours did Scooter Libby spend in solitary confinement?

                          by geomoo on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 12:29:32 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  if he had simply taken the guy to task for (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        geomoo

                        stereotyping i wouldn't object. the HR for racism is just incorrect in the case of that comment, though, since the comment was actually decrying racism.

                        blink-- pale cold

                        by zedaker on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 12:30:12 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No. The comment was using a stereotype to malign (0+ / 0-)

                          an entire race of people.  Again, for the umpteenth time:  Suppose the OP had said, "No black person could ever understand [whatever] because - and ONLY because - they're black"?  Would you be defending the statement?

                          "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                          by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 01:53:08 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, it's my fault because I'm white. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Uberbah, rock the ground

              Total and utter rubbish.

              Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

              by oldpunk on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:23:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  wow, that's incredible (4+ / 0-)

              quit digging friend?

              First  your sample didn't even sample minorities, so for all we know blacks could be even MORE infavor of torture

              second, by the same token that 6 in 10 evangelicals supported torture, 4 in 10 did not.  As a white man who doesn't support torture, as say, the white staff of the ACLU does not, your impliciation that ALL white men are responsible for this is, there is no other word for it, racist.  Very much so.  Your logic is essentially the same as saying all black people are gangmembers, because blacks may be disporportionately represented.  That would be bullshit.

              Third, we should also point out that substantial numbers of minorities voted and are ardent supporters of this administration, which you seem to suggest is still torturing people (which I suspect is not true.)

              I'm sorry, but you need to drop this attitude like a hot brick.

              Too far left to be part of the base anymore.

              by Guinho on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:42:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  If it helps you sweep unpleasant demographics (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rock the ground, kyeo

                under the rug, by all means go ahead and hide rate me.

                I do find it interesting, however, that "Republicans" can be smeared with a broad brush on this site with impunity while a non-specific indictment of their most faithful constituency (white males, which I am, btw) seems to cut just a bit too close to the bone.

                •  You're trying to obfuscate what you said. (4+ / 0-)

                  You didn't mention Republicans until just now.  Changing the subject won't work.

                  You simply lumped all white males into one large, pejorative category.  That is just as wrong as if you'd lumped all black males into one large, pejorative category.

                  "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                  by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 11:00:55 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  ideological groups are different from races (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Uberbah

                  however, as I pointed out, you DID NOT PROVIDE any comparable data.  Whether it's unconfortable demographic data or not is at best undetermined.

                  in fact, for all we know, non-religious whites (at 40%) may well be the LOWEST level of support for torture in the US.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if that were true, since minorities are often more religious, and a lot of these issues that trend with religiosity often cut agains the liberal point of view in minority communities.

                  Next, I would say that the use of demographic trends to smear whole groups is a strategy LONG employed to propagate negative stereotypes against minorities.  Blacks are more likely to drop out of schools, have single parent families, be convicted of violent crimes, etc., which is used by the right wing frequently to smear all African Americans in a profoundly perverse way.  I deplore that intellectual move.

                  next, It is legitimate to smear groups which self-assemble based on professed values and political aims, it is not legitimate to smear groups that have absolutely no a priori correlation with such attributes.

                  But I will HR unapologetic racist assertions.  Nothing to do with close to the bone.  I just don't stand for it, regardless of the group it goes against.  I didn't initially, but your willingness to proceed further convinced me a firmer statement is needed.

                  In any event, I can tell I'm not going to convince you.  I am just trying to demonstrate why such statements are objectionable.

                  Too far left to be part of the base anymore.

                  by Guinho on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 11:04:27 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, lets. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mochajava13, geomoo, IndieGuy

              As a group, white males are the most powerful faction in this country, and if they gave a damn about torture, it very likely would end.

              That's a fail on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin.  For starters, less than a thousand people make up the top positions in the federal government - that's what, .00032% of the population?  How comfortable would you feel with attacking [insert minority here] for [xyz crimes] committed by .00032% of that group?  You could broaden that to every white male general, judge, admiral, governor or state legislator in the country and it would still be a small percentage of the overall white male population.

              Secondly, pulling nasty shit isn't a white male problem, it's a human problem.  Or did you forget who would be signing the order in question proposed by the Obama Administration?

              Or how about the fact that female leaders throughout history have tended to be just as warlike as their male counterparts - Catherine the Great, Elizabeth I, Isabella of Spain, Margaret Thatcher.  And of all the GOP and Democratic candidates for president in 2008, which one talked about "totally obliterating" Iran if they attacked Israel?  Furthermore, you could go back in time, take every single man out of Congress and the AUMF would have sailed through the Senate and come up two votes short in the House on the first vote, with three female reps not voting IIRC.

              Sure, you could make the argument that those female leaders had to be warlike to hold on to power - but that argument would have to apply to warlike male leaders throughout history as well.  And women have backed wars before gaining positions of power or even being able to vote - ever hear of White Feathers?

              In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organisation aimed to coerce men to enlist in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.[1]

              The campaign was very effective, and spread throughout several other nations in the Empire, so much so that it started to cause problems for the government when public servants came under pressure to enlist. This prompted the Home Secretary, Reginald McKenna, to issue employees in state industries with lapel badges reading 'King and Country' to indicate that they too were serving the war effort. Likewise, the Silver War Badge, given to service personnel who had been honourably discharged due to wounds or sickness, was first issued in September 1916 to prevent veterans from being challenged for not wearing uniform.

              This isn't a white male problem.  This is a human problem.

              •  "This is a human problem" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Uberbah, IndieGuy

                Thank you, Uberdah, for that clarity.  If the fight is between blacks and whites, then let's not pretend there is a principle of racism involved.  If the issue is racism, then the principle needs to be applied equally.  If the issue is something else, like leveling a playing field or making up for past wrongs, then let's not pretend there is a principled stand against racism involved.

                The same race that brought the shame of slavery also brought the ideology that makes slavery one of the most heinous crimes, that makes engagement in slavery a crime anywhere under any circumstances.  White people developed the notion of inherent rights, which gave rise to our legal system, the legal system that has now become untrue to some of its most fundamental principles.

                This is not about race, this is about the inherent right of every individual, regardless of race, to be treated with respect.  Such respect extends even to those accused of the worst of crimes, who are given the right to face their accuser, to know the charges and evidence against them, to be tried according to the rule of law, and if found guilty to be spared cruel and unusual punishment.  These cornerstones of our legal system are a crucial protection against tyranny.  If anyone wants to make this about race, then I am proud of my white race for developing this system.

                When the rights of any are violated, the rights of all are threatened.  This principle is color blind.  Bringing race into this discussion confuses rather than enlightens.  And btw, if anyone thinks white folks have nothing to fear from the tyranny of the USG, then they are dangerously deluded.

                How many hours did Scooter Libby spend in solitary confinement?

                by geomoo on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 12:02:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  If you have access to the internet (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyeo

                which I suspect you do (what clued me in was that you made the post that I'm replying to), you can search voting breakdowns from recent elections and find out that if white males did not vote, the republicans would have less than 25% of the seats in congress.

                If that were the case, Blue Dog Dems notwithstanding, I suspect that'd we live in a very different country . .. .

                •  annnnnd back to square one (0+ / 0-)

                  you can search voting breakdowns from recent elections and find out that if white males did not vote, the republicans would have less than 25% of the seats in congress.

                  Hell, remove white voters entirely.  Obama wins re-election with 85% of the vote, and goes right back to assassinations and indefinite detentions without trials.

                  This isn't a white male problem.  This is a human problem.

      •  Lol (5+ / 0-)

        It's so hard being white, part 82.

        •  Yup, being white is like Democracy (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyeo, Lost Left Coaster

          it's the worse race to be except for all the others!

          uh-oh, I foresee more hide ratings in the offing for that . . . .

        •  Thank you for making my point. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rock the ground

          Racist bullshit.

          "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

          by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:25:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  it's so rough being a hypocrit (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Uberbah, geomoo, rock the ground

          either you think racism is bad, in which case you call it out, regardless of who it is directed against, or you think it is acceptable when employed against groups you don't like, in which case you need to stop complaining about practices you yourself engage in.

          unless it's IOKIYAM time?

          Too far left to be part of the base anymore.

          by Guinho on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:44:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't know what racism is, do you? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roadbed Guy
            •  Better than you do (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Uberbah, geomoo, rock the ground

              apparently.

              Certainly propagating negative racial stereotypes and making blanket negative attributions of an entire racial group both qualify

              I suspect you have some self- serving twist onthat that exempts you from any possibility of being racist by virtue of the color of your skin though

              Too far left to be part of the base anymore.

              by Guinho on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:52:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ahaha (0+ / 0-)

                Not even touching your assumptions and how they reveal your own latent racism

                How about this

                read something that is actually written by someone who has experienced real racism as opposed to the "white people can't dance" kind

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                and figure out how much of a major ass you are making of yourself all over this thread

                •  o.k, whatever (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Uberbah, IndieGuy

                  you either don't like stereotyping or you do.  I thought that particular diary was close to getting the point.  however, if this is to be a dialogue, then it has to go both ways.  You ain't interested though.

                  whatever.  I don't have time to waste on this anymore. Don't expect me to get terribly exciting by any of your complaints going forward, then.

                  Too far left to be part of the base anymore.

                  by Guinho on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 11:37:54 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  This is a telling quote (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Uberbah, geomoo, IndieGuy

                  Too many of you are not doing this. You are not listening because you are trying too hard (imo) to get us to listen to you. Again, I know many of you mean well and I sincerely appreciate the effort but you’re alienating many of us even more. You don’t mean to, but you are.

                  That cuts both ways.

                  Too far left to be part of the base anymore.

                  by Guinho on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 11:42:07 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  How about listening to Middle Easterners? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  IndieGuy

                  Since we're the ones, by and large, who are being affected by this?  

                  The people who are saying go ahead and torture/kill?  Coming from just about every ethnic and religious group in the nation, including Middle Easterners!  I find it slightly insulting to assume that only "white" Americans are OK with Obama's treatment of terror suspects.  This isn't just about elites, it's about the majority of Americans (of all races and religions) who have absolutely no issues with the policies that Bush started and Obama has continued.  

                  If the original poster of this thread had pointed out that people of European ancestry suspected of terrorism were getting better treatment than others, than I may have been OK with that.  But that's not what he said; instead he said that whites were OK with this treatment.  Which is frankly untrue, as the ACLU and CCR (both staffed mainly by people of European ancestry) are fighting these issues.  

                  •  Here's an article (0+ / 0-)

                    from The Atlantic Monthly describing how a "white guy" deliberately tried to provoke the TSA into treating him as though he was a terrorist (but was unable to do so!!).

                    It basically debunks all your bunk.

                    •  Please read what I wrote again. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      IndieGuy

                      I specifically said that if you had pointed out that European terror suspects were getting better treatment than those of Middle Eastern origin, than I may be OK with that.  But you didn't.  You implied that only whites are for the way that we're being treated.  You also implied that all white men agreed with the treatment of Middle Eastern detainees.  Sorry, but that is just NOT true.  And not all Middle Easterners disagree with how terror suspects are being treated.  (Not everyone in my family disagrees with it.) And not all white men agree with Bush and Obama's policies - the group to bring the court cases have been dominated by white men.

                      Darrell Issa, the only Arab in Congress?  Voted to reauthorize the PATRIOT Act.  And to expand FISA.  So please don't pretend that this is all about someone being of Western European ancestry or not, because it isn't that simple.  Look at what people are saying about Julian Assange - some have called for his assassination as a "terrorist."  

                      •  No, what I said if that whites as a demographic (0+ / 0-)

                        gave a damn, things would be different.

                        You can say whatever you want about Arabs in this country - but (and if Wikipedia is correct) they comprise about 1.3% (4 million) of the population.

                        Therefore quite frankly, their views one way or another are utterly irrelevant.  One point three percent of the population does not strike fear into into politician . ..

                        •  That's not what you said (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          IndieGuy

                          You may have implied the above, but you didn't say it, and that's not how it came across.   You said, "But perhaps white males don't take it seriously because this type of thing doesn't happen to them."   Some white men DO take this seriously.  Your portrayal of all white men as one big monolithic group is what I object to.  I agree with most of everything else you have said, including the racist overtones.

                          If a significant minority (and I'm not talking about numbers here), regardless of race, gave a damn, things would be different.  Right now, few people care.  If a larger number of whites cared, things would be exactly the same because frankly the population of this nation is irrelevant politically.  If the richest 1.3% cared, things might be different.  And really, if Saudi Arabia gave a damn, we'd be singing a very different tune right now.  They don't care, hence, nothing here changes.  The fact that Middle Easterners are a small percentage of the population is irrelevant; a lot of other groups that are less than 5% politically relevant.  Numbers are irrelevant; what matters is the power behind the numbers.  

                        •  Forgot to add (0+ / 0-)

                          I'm a little sicked by the American population as a whole, who don't seem to give a damn about this issue period.  

                        •  No, what you said was: (0+ / 0-)

                          But perhaps white males don't take it seriously because this type of thing doesn't happen to them

                          Nice try.

                          "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

                          by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 01:58:13 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  And hours later, you have yet to (0+ / 0-)

                            supply any evidence of "white people" being detained at Gitmo.

                            Quite frankly, me and my fellow white trash compatriots don't find your (and machojava's) allegations of Arabs being "white people" all that convincing . ..

            •  Apparently, neither do you. (0+ / 0-)

              To you, it seems to be a one-dimensional caricature.

              You're defending a blatantly racist stereotype by claiming that since YOU don't think it's racist it can't possibly be.  Nonsense.

              "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -Ben Franklin

              by IndieGuy on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:58:01 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Just out of curiosity (0+ / 0-)

          is it possible to be racist against whites if you're white yourself?

          You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.-- Francis Urqhart

          by Johnny Q on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 12:16:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Come on (0+ / 0-)

          pointing out that hatred that Middle Easterners face isn't only from white people isn't "it's so hard being white."  The original post in the thread should have left that out.

      •  uprated because recognition of racism is (7+ / 0-)

        not racism!

        blink-- pale cold

        by zedaker on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 09:43:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're (4+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        bobdevo, Roadbed Guy, zedaker, kyeo
        Hidden by:
        twigg

        a fucking idiot. Racism?

        Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

        by cdreid on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 09:49:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let's not do that, huh? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Uberbah

          It's hard enough to discuss race without the silly personal insults.

          "You're a fucking idiot=I got your point, but didn't agree with it, and here's why:".

          We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

          by twigg on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 10:49:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Afghans are white men (4+ / 0-)

      In fact, you might even legitimately call the Aryans.

      Arabs are white men, too.

      Just saying.

      "I would rather be right than consistent." John Marshall Harlan

      by Hawesdawg on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 09:13:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, technically speaking perhaps (7+ / 0-)

        but I was simply referring to my demographic - adult/somewhat ageing "whites" in the way that an average American would think of them -  which btw is Bill O'Reilly's core audience.

        I look around and am a bit ashamed about how most/many of us think and vote.   But for the life of me I don't see how confronting this ugly reality constitutes racism.

        •  Most people wouldn't be able to recognize (0+ / 0-)

          a Middle Easterner if they came across us; there's just not enough of us, and we're a very diverse lot.  Most of us in the US are Christian, not Muslim.  We look like some unknown ethnic group if we're light skinned and some other unknown ethnic group if we're darker.  The only way someone can recognize us is if we're wearing traditional garb that is now associated with Islam.

          By the way - probably quite a few Middle Easterners watch and agree with Bill O'Reilly.

      •  uh huh, and a tomato is a fruit but who cares n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Uberbah

        "I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky." -Abraham Lincoln

        by jethropalerobber on Wed Dec 22, 2010 at 11:32:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated for HR abuse. n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      An Affirming Flame, kyeo, lunachickie

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