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View Diary: Bradley Manning's Confinement Conditions are 'Not Customary' (43 comments)

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  •  Tempest in a teapot. If you wanna complain (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rock the ground

    about torture or cruelty, a guy in isolation who's a possible threat to National Security, is not really an issue. The unusual circumstances of the crime certainly fit the unusual circumstances of his incarceration.

    If you have a issue with isolation in general, well that's another issue. This is not a common criminal. And as a former service member, I know the military is a little more harsh in it's standard incarceration, since they hold soldiers to a higher standard.
    You simply can't equate a soldier held under military justice codes, with common criminals incarcerated in standard prisons.
    And the National Security threat is certainly valid, as is the possibility of suicide watch.... So if there's an issue, it's not with the system, it's with the shrinks who decide what is or is not necessary. ... and I'm sure you can't get a straight answer for that as most likely all of this is classified.

    "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

    by Fireshadow on Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 09:44:41 AM PST

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    •  I do have an issue with isolation in general. (7+ / 0-)

      I think it's a cruel and almost universally counterproductive practice.

      But even to the extent one believes it necessary in some cases, I fail to see how one justifies it for someone who has not been convicted of anything and who has not been any form of threat to either staff or other prisoners.

      •  A National Security threat trumps all other (0+ / 0-)

        issues. Suicide is the other concern I read about, not your other fabricated non-issues of "threat to either staff or other prisoners."
        Stop making shit up, and you may find an argument in there somewhere, or you may realize there is no "there" there.
        And yes, he is not charged... yet.  
        As I said, National Security and in this case, suicide, trump everything else.

        "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

        by Fireshadow on Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 10:11:00 AM PST

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        •  I'm the one "making shit up?" (7+ / 0-)

          What a crock.

          It's a documented fact that he has not made any trouble as a prisoner.

          It's a documented fact that he has not been convicted of any crime.

          It is not a documented fact that it would be any greater threat to national security to treat him less harshly.

          •  Um... it's documented he already stole shit. (0+ / 0-)

            It's not documented what all he stole.... only what we know he stole.

            "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

            by Fireshadow on Thu Dec 30, 2010 at 10:08:36 AM PST

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            •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

              When was his trial and conviction?  Somehow I missed it.

              With all this manure around, there must be a pony in here somewhere. - Count Piotr Vorkosigan

              by jrooth on Thu Dec 30, 2010 at 11:15:46 AM PST

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              •  "Stole shit" as in took information and released (0+ / 0-)

                it. He took it without permission. We don't know what all he took except what got released. It IS a direct act that could jeopardize national security.
                THat's a valid rational concern.
                Especially with a guy who may know more high tech methods of information theft.... that's just what WE know of.

                Trials come later. Securing the threat comes first.
                They got lawyers representation, don't they?

                "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

                by Fireshadow on Thu Dec 30, 2010 at 02:48:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And you've seen the proof of this claim? (0+ / 0-)

                  All I've seen is Adrian Lamo's claims about what Manning allegedly said to him in IM chat.

                  I'm not saying I know he didn't steal anything.  I'm saying that all that is at this point is an accusation, not an established fact.  Just because the executive branch accuses someone of something doesn't mean it's true.

                  I know it's fashionable these days to just ignore all that silly business about due process, but I continue to naively hope for better from people on this site.

                  Furthermore, even granting that there's a legitimate national security interest in limiting his ability to communicate, that doesn't demonstrate that this level of isolation (let alone things like banning exercise and waking him up to "check that he's OK" which seems more like deliberate sleep deprivation to me) is necessary.

                  With all this manure around, there must be a pony in here somewhere. - Count Piotr Vorkosigan

                  by jrooth on Fri Dec 31, 2010 at 09:27:28 AM PST

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                  •  No one has changed the rules for him (0+ / 0-)

                    unless you have proof of that? It's just standard incarceration for a probable dangerous threat to national security and suicide watch. If your upset with how he's being held, what does that have to do with Obama or the executive branch?

                    Your just hyperventilating to create controversy where there is none.

                    And proof of what claim? What the hell are you talking about? Didn't information get stolen?

                    And the "executive branch" doesn't accuse anybody of anything. You have proof of this?
                    I think that's the AG's job or some other military branch of law enforcement.

                    Again... you're just a shill trying to blame Obama for anything and everything.
                    pathetic.

                    "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

                    by Fireshadow on Fri Dec 31, 2010 at 03:26:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Feh. (0+ / 0-)
                      1. Even if abusive treatment of suspects is "standard procedure" that wouldn't make it any less abusive.  However, I have seen accounts that other prisoners accused of espionage were not held under these conditions.
                      1. Ad hominem arguments ("hyperventilating to create controversy") are a sign that the person engaging in them knows the weakness of his own position.
                      1. Yes, information was presumably stolen, since somebody passed it to Wikileaks.  What has not been proven is that that somebody was Manning.  That's what that quaint tradition of holding a trial is about.
                      1. The military is part of the executive branch (hence "commander in chief").  The military has arrested and charged Manning.  Ergo, the executive has accused Manning.
                      1. ("you're just a shill trying to blame Obama for anything and everything")  see point #2.

                      With all this manure around, there must be a pony in here somewhere. - Count Piotr Vorkosigan

                      by jrooth on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 06:41:51 AM PST

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                    •  Oh and ... (0+ / 0-)

                      Regarding your ad hominem attack ("Again... you're just a shill trying to blame Obama for anything and everything. pathetic") ... I invite you to back it up by pointing to any comment by me in the context of the Manning matter that even mentions Obama.  You won't find it.

                      With all this manure around, there must be a pony in here somewhere. - Count Piotr Vorkosigan

                      by jrooth on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 06:48:06 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  I'd like to point out (12+ / 0-)

          A National Security threat trumps all other issues.

          that it's that sort of thinking that got us the patriot act in the first place

        •  Well, a legitimate national security threat (9+ / 0-)

          is pretty important, no doubt.  But saying that it trumps every other consideration invites hiding problems under that blanket.  It is important to me, as a citizen, as a veteran, and mostly as a human that the government act in a humane way.  The description above doesn't seem likely to be productive to good mental health, instead it seems like they are softening him up to manipulate him.

          "Play it LOUD Robbie, Play it fucking loud" Dylan

          by NearlyNormal on Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 10:29:10 AM PST

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        •  It's not sleep deprivation (0+ / 0-)

          If it's called a suicide watch.

          I'm sure would be a self satisfied hippy jerkoff if he was under a house arrest regime.

          A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

          by Salo on Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 10:43:08 AM PST

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    •  Oh and one more thing ... (7+ / 0-)

      Your whole "it's common practice" argument is a perfect example of my point that brutality has become the default in our society.

    •  This is not a common criminal (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DaleA, allenjo, cedar park

      Bingo! He hasn't been convicted of anything. You're right that it can't be equated since you are comparing criminals who have already been sentenced to someone who hasn't been convicted.

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