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View Diary: Christian War On TX Gays Sustains Collateral Damage: Cops, Fireman (304 comments)

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  •  Bigotry is bigotry. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jethropalerobber

    I guess I fail to see the benefit of feeling the sting of bigotry and hypocrisy.

    •  I'm the bigot now? I'm the hypocrite? (15+ / 0-)

      JP made an excellent observation, is it fair to call Iraq an "American" war when the vast majority of Americans did not participate in it?

      You didn't respond.

      "You can't hardly separate homosexuals from subversives."--Senator Kenneth Wherry, 1950.

      by Scott Wooledge on Tue Jan 04, 2011 at 10:22:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This entire discussion (at least with you) is (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Predictor, kimoconnor, bythesea, Clarknt67

      about Christianity.

      Does not your religion teach "turn the other cheek"?

      Is it your job, or the job of other Christians on Daily Kos, I ask again, as a Christian, to mount an apologia on behalf of Christianity or "some Christians" in every instance when some people who describe themselves as Christians do bad things and people accurately point that out?

      Look man I get that you're hurt about this.  I don't know you so I don't know if this is just some way of acting hurt or if you genuinely feel that way.

      But if people say they are Christians, I sort of expect them to act like what I was taught when people tried to turn me into a Christian as a young lad, what I was taught Christians are supposed to BE.

      And being hurt because someone says something accurate with no intent to tar a whole group of people isn't in it.  All people are imperfect -- but this objection you mount, I point out, is in no way part of Christian discipline as I understand it.

      Moreover, even without respect to Christianity per se, do you NOT see the value in feeling the sting of the oppressed?  How can you not?  How can you feel what we feel without walking a mile in our shoes?

      •  The thing is, Andy, "turn the other cheek" (4+ / 0-)

        doesn't mean what you (and most people) think it means. As Jesus used the phrase (demonstrated by all of the other examples he used in that famous section of Matthew's Gospel), he didn't mean it in the sense of "Meekly accept even physical abuse when it is offered." Rather, he meant it in the sense of "Refuse to return evil for evil and do not allow yourself to be dismissed as insignificant."

        I can explain in more detail, but gotta run take an important meeting.

        •  Yeah, I've heard that. Good point. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          musing85, Bionic, Predictor

          But who is the one doing the evil here?

          Here's one point if I may be allowed to expand further.

          We are not the oppressors here.  And for some of us, it's been a life long journey to NOT generalize and hate all Christians.  Because it is true that many LGBT people are persecuted on the grounds of Christianity and this is neither an isolated event nor immune to the usual proscriptions against wild generalization.

          It's not a wild generalization in other words to say that "Christians" have spent much time demonizing and attacking gays.

          And even if it was a wild generalization, it's not a wild generalization without cause.  Day after day, month after month, year after year, we hear tales of people attacking, killing, demanding to be killed, hating, beating, denying jobs and destroying gay people and the rationalization is Christianity in general.

          And those people want FAIRNESS?!  How dare they?  They surrender the right to fairness by what their brethren DO.

          THERE IS NO FAIRNESS.  NOT FOR US.  We are destroyed -- our lives, our careers, sometimes our very corporeal beings -- are destroyed without cause by people who claim to be Christian.  This is not an era in which anyone who claims to be a Christian is thrown to the lions.

          And these people are mewling about a DIARY TITLE?

          Come on.  I never said Christians should be abused.  Physically or otherwise.  And whether or not the phrase "turn the other cheek" had anything to do with meekness or physical abuse, there are other statements in the christian pantheon that do lead to exactly that conclusion -- such as the meek inheriting the earth.

          So those Christians who do this -- not you -- need to jump off that cross, because it's not just someone else who needs the wood -- WE NEED THE WOOD.

          Our being hunted, killed and demonized by Christians in other words stacks up a little more than a diary title and a few people who fairly have bad feelings about a group of people because of nasty and persistent actions on their part.

          I have spent a lifelong journey learning not to resent Christians for what is actually a totally fair generalization.  It's why I have Christian friends and I would not abandon that journey for anything.

          But I am not bound by those rules.  If one chooses to be a Christian, one takes on certain obligations -- and taking gratuitous, self-aggrandizing umbrage on behalf of an idea which cannot be "hurt" (because it is not a corporeal being) is not one of them as I understand it.

          •  The ones doing the evil (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AndyS In Colorado, Predictor

            Are the ones twisting the Word of God into something it is not, and worshiping a hate-filled idol of their own construction--while trying to pass it off as authentic Christianity.

            The thing is, it's important to maintain the distinction between the Christianists (like the pastor in this diary) and the actual Christians. I know you and Clark understand that distinction, but there are plenty who don't.

            I don't have a problem with Clark's title as it now stands--because I know him and I know how he meant it. I can also understand raincrow's objections to it. The casual reader of this article doesn't have access to the backstory that you and I do, and in a hundred years from now when we're all gathering dust or going back to it, all that will remain will be the words.

            That said, raincrow should have made his objection politely and then left it at that. He went way overboard, and that's sad.

            •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              musing85, AndyS In Colorado

              The casual reader of this article doesn't have access to the backstory that you and I do, and in a hundred years from now when we're all gathering dust or going back to it, all that will remain will be the words.

              I mostly write with a presumption that my readership if they are not familiar with me, are at least on the same page.

              One person upthread said, "But if you only read the headline..."

              An objection I could not possibly care less about.

              If I can take the time to craft 1,000 words as carefully as I do, I certainly think it's reasonable to ask people to read the whole piece before they get out the pitchforks and knives.

              "You can't hardly separate homosexuals from subversives."--Senator Kenneth Wherry, 1950.

              by Scott Wooledge on Tue Jan 04, 2011 at 05:31:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Anybody who just looks at the headline (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AndyS In Colorado, Clarknt67

                will miss the point. It's clear from the rest of the diary that you're painting with a brush of the appropriate size. That's what's important.

                I can understand why raincrow would have concerns about the title, but I also think those concerns are misplaced. Your prose is only susceptible to misconstruction if someone reads all and only the headline--and if they do that, then any criticisms they might level wouldn't be worth the electrons they recycle to produce or disseminate them. I s'pose it might in theory turn off a few people such that they wouldn't click through--but if that's the case, chances are probably pretty good that you wouldn't have been able to reach them even with the other thousand words.

                No pitchforks or knives from me!

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