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View Diary: RKBA: A Terrible Act of Domestic Terrorism (368 comments)

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  •  Both. (3+ / 0-)

    I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

    by labradog on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 06:46:26 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  In that world, it's appropriate to criminalize (13+ / 0-)

      dildos and condoms, to protect our immortal souls.

      Sorry, but I don't buy the social conservative impulse.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 06:48:15 AM PST

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      •  Doesn't really follow (5+ / 0-)

        there's a pretty big difference between heavily regulating stuff for which the only purpose is killing people, vs heavily regulating stuff that has a variety of uses and against which complaints are simply moral.

        I have mixed feelings on all of this stuff, but I don't buy your slippery slope here. It's perfectly possible to heavily regulate an item for which the only real purpose is to physically harm people, and not heavily regulate an item with varied purposes and against which the only complaints are moral.

        •  Oh, my God...I didn't know the dildo was loaded. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Spit

          I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

          by labradog on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 07:18:36 AM PST

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        •  Wow, sorry for the repeating myself (0+ / 0-)

          it's sorta early here. I woke up before I'd planned, with too much snot and not enough coherence, apparently.

        •  The ONLY purpose of (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea, fizziks, Elmar, theatre goon

          a gun is killing people? That's ridiculous.

          Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

          by Joieau on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 08:15:48 AM PST

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          •  Didn't say gun (3+ / 0-)

            but the extended clips, yeah.

            •  really? that's interesting, Spit, 'cause (5+ / 0-)

              the extended clips we used to have on the firing range at Barksdale were for use on the range, period. Training purposes. M-16s came with 30-round mags. We typically didn't load 'em to full capacity; most orders of fire were for a 10-round mag. We did have, for OSI and SPs, some 15-round orders (just like we had '3 and 2' orders for the .38 revolver) -- the idea was to train the personnel in class to shoot effectively -- that is to say, on target and in a timely manner -- under a variety of conditions.

              You could buy banana clips (anywhere from 50 to 120 rounds of 5.56 / .223, which was what the '16 shot) for privately owned weapons; some outfits had banana clips as issue-equipment (our range trained USAF AD, AFRES, ANG, and US Army reserves and guard personnel). I don't care for 'em, 'cause they're a magnet for misfeeds and other malfunctions IMO. But just 'cause I think that way doesn't mean there are not other shooters for whom they're useful (e.g. the parish sheriff's folks, who preferred one banana clip to 30-round regular mags and a pair of spares pouched on the belt, for their GAU-5 variant weapons).

              For our purposes the shooting wasn't designed to kill (we weren't teaching snipers). It was designed to disable a target (and, hopefully, cause said target to pull a helper or two out of the line of battle -- center of mass; that may be outmoded nowadays. But the thinking in the '70s was it took another guy, or two, to move a wounded soldier aside, or along on a retreat).

              You can teach kill-shot marksmanship. I don't know if they still do or not, but sniper training used to specialize in that. One shot. One kill. Often under circumstances that made the target drop when nobody expected it could be done.

              I think hunters ought to practice it as much as possible, because it's a sin to let a wounded animal suffer; but that's me, again, and my Texas heritage goes back to my Dad's years as a teenager / young adult during the Depression -- you don't waste ammunition, it causes your whole family to go hungry. Much of my personal hunting got done, in fact, with a slingshot / bow and arrow -- sticks and stones are free for the picking up, and rubber bands are pretty cheap, as is string.

              I'm so old I tend to think of RKBA as not limited to firearms, especially -- and particularly not to pistols.

              LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

              by BlackSheep1 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 03:04:37 PM PST

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          •  And for the record (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sandy on Signal, mrblifil, Catesby

            I spent a lot of my youth on a working ranch, and have seen firsthand that guns have lots of uses, from providing a quick death to a seriously injured animal to hunting, or for self defense (though I find this the most dubious of uses, it's a legitimate purpose, IMO).

            They're tools. They can be used properly and responsibly, or they can be used irresponsibly and with great damage.

            But if we had some kind of epidemic of people running around killing random masses with tree trimmers, I'd be concerned about how to make that situation safer, too. I think the fundamental problem here is much more about a culture of violence than it is about the specific tools used, but that doesn't change the fact that having tons of guns floating around all over the place makes it very, very easy for that violence to be massive in scale and damage. You're not going to change our culture quickly, and in the meantime, lots of violent people -- some mentally ill, some (technically) not -- are going to use this particular tool to kill people.

            Technology very often brings challenges. Guns make killing very fast, very easy, and very impersonal. That's true for everybody, from soldiers to ranchers to random crazy guys. It doesn't negate their solid uses, but it also comes with consequences that I think people need to thoughtfully grapple with.

            I can't think of a single real, worthwhile use for these magazines. If somebody wants to try to point one out to me, I'm game to think about it. But I don't really buy any philosophical argument that doesn't also seriously consider the real-world damage to real life people, in the world full of violent nutsos that we've got rather than the one we'd like to live in where everybody is responsible and sane.

            •  One single real worthwhile use. (4+ / 0-)

              When at the range practicing the grip on the pistol during recoil and subsequent shot placement, removing one hand to plug in the next 9-round magazine can be a disruption of focus.

              There you are, paying close attention to where your hands and wrist are and are not rigid, focusing on the front sight, trying to get an intimate feel for how the muzzle flips up and settles back down so that you can have it fall right back into pointing at the same place on the paper downrange. You work in shots of 3, the first and the two followups which are what your are working on today. But your pistol holds 9 rounds, so it's harder to settle into a groove of productive practice because you have to stop and change focus to the reloading process.

              When you go out and are being taught how to drive, do you stop every few blocks and get out, then get back in and get resettled into the seat, checking the mirrors and such? Or do you get in and have a whole session of productive driving practice?

              Personally, I don't have the walking-stick length magazine, but I've thought about getting a few for the exact real worthwhile use I have just described to you. Because contrary to what hollywood has drilled into the random person's head, guns are not playtoys and they require plenty of practice and effort to use. Scroll back a ways on the RKBA diaries, there was one some weeks ago that went over just some of the idiocies that hollywood has taught the public.

              ~~It Takes A Village To Keep The Peace~~~(RKBA)~~~(-7.12, -5.54)

              by JayFromPA on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 03:56:52 PM PST

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              •  Target practice? Really? (0+ / 0-)

                That's why we need to make sure anybody and everybody can stock up with as much lethal power as they want?

                If all you want to do is shoot targets, how 'bout we allow automatic clips for target practice but you can only fire rubber bullets? I like to listen to the Opera, but if Opera listening proved to kill a couple hundred people a year, I would not argue with attempts to restrict it's distribution to the public.

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