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View Diary: RKBA: A Terrible Act of Domestic Terrorism (368 comments)

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  •  I like most of those ideas, though I'd want to (8+ / 0-)

    know more about "demonstrating a pattern of aggression" before I could support it as a disqualification.  Do you mean they have had run-ins with LEOs or actually been convicted of something?

    I get nervous when the police gain the power to deny rights without criminal convictions.  NYPD will deny you a firearms license if you have arrests in your background without convictions.  That disturbs me on many levels.

    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

    by Crookshanks on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 12:14:55 PM PST

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    •  I am just sketching a big picture. (2+ / 0-)

      a definition for pattern of aggression is key and i don't really have one.  this article is a good overview of the MN law. in the course of my research i have not found a black letter standard. there will need to be some lattitude for leo to make a determination based on the facts and circumstance of a particular case.  for example if they receive a call for service about a person and the person is obviously unstable then based on the evidence the person should go on the list. as a matter of due process i think the state should provide a free opportunity for the person to be evaluated by a mental health professional if they cannot afford to see one of their own.  however until they are examined they go on the list.

      this morning i heard a piece on local npr about families' dealing with schizophrenic loved ones.  it was repeatedly noted how difficult it is to get someone committed and then find affordable treatment.  a father talked about having to call the police because he believed his son's condition was then a serious threat to the safety of his son and others.  his son had not assaulted anyone so the police could not do anything though they could see that the man was clearly delusional. i think that there should be a way for police to get such a person on this list maybe not arrest them but issue a summons for appearance.  but how does a sick person understand this?

      there are lots of questions but i think the idea does merit some consideration/discussion.

      •  sorry, I can't get behind that.... (5+ / 0-)

        ... it's guilty until proven innocent.  Not something I can support.

        There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

        by Crookshanks on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 12:43:56 PM PST

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        •  my thinking on having to surrender a firearm is.. (2+ / 0-)

          admitteldly not well thought out at this point. i don't see it as being guilty until proven innocent but maybe a denial of due process.  i think that due process checks could more easily be put into place for a no-buy list.  establish a similar standard placed on leo like those that must be met to conduct a search of a person.  i don't recall what it is... based on professional of the officer experience there is reason to believe the person is a threat because of xyz.  i don't see going on the list as guilty until proven innocent, it doesn't make being sick a crime.  what it does is temporarilly prevent the person from purchasing a firearm.  there would be due process for that person to challenge that.  such as the current nics delay and denial procedure.  if the state does not provide the person with the opportunity to see a mental health professional at no expense within say 10 business days then the person is taken off the list. many states mandate that if a ccw applicant has not received a responce to the application in a certain amount of time then the ccw must be issued without further wait.  if a person does not want to wait for a state provided evaluation they can pay to have their own done.  if the person wants to challenge the evaluation they have a right to a hearing akin to what is granted persons who apply for and are denied ss disability benefits... how sick is this person?

          •  you are thinking it would be fair because you (4+ / 0-)

            live in a relatively free state.  Move to New York City where every single institution from the Mayor's office on down is hostile towards the 2nd amendment.  Then tell me how comfortable you would be with the notion of a mental health professional hired by the city determining whether or not you can exercise your civil rights.

            I understand the problem you are trying to solve but the solution you are proffering would give the police the power to take away someones 2nd amendment rights without so much as charging them with a crime.  The fact that you'd provide an appeals process is small comfort.  It would be child's play to rig such a process and you can bet money that anti-RKBA jurisdictions would do exactly that.

            Seriously, jurisdictions like NYC will deny you a firearms license if you have a bad driving record, have been fired from a previous job or have arrests in your background without convictions.  You think they need more power?  That scares me.

            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

            by Crookshanks on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 01:23:11 PM PST

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