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View Diary: UPDATE II- Amnesty International Comes Out for Bradley Manning (341 comments)

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  •  Having to be of 'one' mind (0+ / 0-)

    on an issue where all the evidence has not been presented, without tolerating any dissent and marking others as being 'them' worthy of being banned for their questions or disagreements is definitely a step in the road to tyranny.

    Fundamentalism applies to political beliefs as well as religious ones.

    We must all conform to the notion that Manning committed no crime, even though the evidence that he stole information that did not belong to him is out there for all to see.

    Solitary confinement is not unusual in this country and has been with us for decades, but not suddenly that a hero of the left is in the brig so to speak, with food, water, excercise, access to a lawyer and visitation rights, suddenly if you don't agree that that is torture you are one of them.

    Absolutes rarely exist in these situations. That some might see shades of gray and be considered 'the enemy' or 'fanbots' or whatever is frankly walking down a dangerous road.

    Yet this black and white, us vs them behavior is in full view in this diary.

    ~a little change goes a long way~

    by missliberties on Sun Jan 23, 2011 at 06:33:11 PM PST

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    •  You're being so hyperbolic (10+ / 0-)

      We have plenty of dissent here. I'm not usually up on who got banned, but I don't think when they do it's for disagreeing or questioning but for behavior crossing certain lines. If you know of someone who was banned for reasonable disagreement, please clue me in.

      And where do you see people saying Manning committed no crime? I haven't - I've seen people say he hasn't been convicted of a crime.

      You keep talking about black and white and shades of gray, but you seem take a pretty rigid view yourself. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard you ever say that it's possible Manning is being mistreated. Do you admit the possibility? If he came out with permanent psychological damage, would you change your mind? If every international human rights group opposed his treatment, would that influence you? How about if the President decided he did?

      I do consider Manning a hero in much the same way that I considered Daniel Ellsberg one. That doesn't mean I think he's not guilty of a crime or that he shouldn't be punished, just as Ellsberg would have been had the government not mishandled his case so badly. There are your shades of gray right there. I believe in obeying the law, and I believe military justice must be strict, but this sometimes conflicts with other values. We were lied into a war in which hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and hundreds of billions of dollars spent, as we were lied into other wars in my lifetime. We've committed war crimes. These things must be exposed.

      My views are pretty consistent. My opinion about solitary confinement apply to all prisoners. The concept of universal human rights is evolving, and I want to see this country embrace it. What Amnesty International says is very significant to me. We supposedly punish people by depriving them of their liberty, not by inflicting severe physical or mental pain on them.

      The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. --Bertrand Russell

      by denise b on Sun Jan 23, 2011 at 07:22:01 PM PST

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      •  Have you seen the comments (0+ / 0-)

        in this thread.

        Most are staggeringly ugly personal accusations because I don't agree with x.

        Manning was charge with a crime. In my opinion that charge is not without merit.

        The leaps of logic are pretty out of bounds. The unqualified shallow moral self justification and moral certitude judges me guilty as charged of something so unseemly that I have become a 'they'.

        Because I believe Manning committed a crime and is deservedly in jail.

        supposedly under horrid conditions, where he eats, showers, has access to a lawyer, has visitors, but somehow has trouble sleeping which is just like torture,

        He divulged military secrets as if there would be no consequences?

        ~a little change goes a long way~

        by missliberties on Sun Jan 23, 2011 at 08:06:37 PM PST

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        •  MissLiberties (7+ / 0-)

          I don't think you've responded to my comment at all; I wonder if you even read it. I don't sense any listening or dialogue at all on your part, just endless repetition that sounds to me like the very black & white view that you decry. Perhaps this is why people are frustrated with you.

          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. --Bertrand Russell

          by denise b on Sun Jan 23, 2011 at 08:27:36 PM PST

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          •  I don't know if you read all the comments here (0+ / 0-)

            You really shouldn't.

            I think you misunderstood that my reply was in relation to some the folks here suggesting people be banned for disagreement and that even suggesting that Manning committed a crime is over the line.

            And yes I did read your reply which was very reasonable.

            ~a little change goes a long way~

            by missliberties on Sun Jan 23, 2011 at 09:09:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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