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View Diary: Explosive leaked documents: The Palestine Papers (363 comments)

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  •  I should have clarified (1+ / 0-)
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    Mets102

    it strengthens the Palestinians (I think) in U.S. public opinion. It may have no affect at all but I hardly see what is controversial about what I just said.

    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

    by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 02:52:27 PM PST

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    •  It *could* do (6+ / 0-)

      it won't automatically do so. As we see from the NYT coverage so far, or from Jennifer Rubin's piece in the Washington Post that manages to cite the papers as evidence of Palestinian rejectionism, if left to the mainstream media alone the papers will have little effect. If the American liberal-left decides to get off its collective arse and start publicising them, then some progress might be made. But sadly I haven't seen any sign of that happening. Did I miss something?

      •  Well you rejected J Streets (2+ / 0-)
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        livosh1, Mets102

        statement above but they are doing exactly what you asked for. They are rejecting the Israeli narrative and for telling the U.S. to stop screwing around and be serious about getting both sides to the table.

        I mean that is the same conclusion I come too. That if indeed this is what was offered, then Israel "has some 'splainin" to do.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 03:30:30 PM PST

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        •  As soon as the papers were leaked (9+ / 0-)

          J Street put out a statement calling for a return to the "peace process". Sorry, that's pathetic, and damaging.

          More generally, it's not good enough to talk vaguely about the need for the U.S. to take a harder line. We know what needs to happen - the U.S. has to start conditioning military and other aid to Israel on and end of the occupation. For that to happen American progressives and liberals have to start seriously organising to change government policy and start winning over public opinion. A group like J Street isn't best placed to do that; American progressive activists and organisations are, not least because they can connect the issue of U.S. support for the occupation to broader issues of popular concern (corporate control of media, undemocratic policymaking, American imperialism, etc.). But unless I've missed something, they've been silent on the issue. If that continues then of course the Palestine Papers will have no effect - how can they?

          •  Changing American policy is a toughie (2+ / 0-)
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            livosh1, Mets102

            The American polity despite claims of victory by the far left is not about to give up on the State of Israel. See your comment here:

            American progressive activists and organisations are, not least because they can connect the issue of U.S. support for the occupation to broader issues of popular concern (corporate control of media, undemocratic policymaking, American imperialism, etc.).

            tells it all.

            America is a blend of people and our ideas are not dogmatic left or (despite what people here say) dogmatic right. U.S. progressives don't see us as always being the bad guy or seeing the things like International Solidarity as more important than dealing with things at home.

            You need to understand, that if the other side is just as bad or worse than the current regime then why should American Progressive support that alternative?

            American Liberals generally like Israel. Sorry but that is a fact. We may not like things about Israel (such as the Occupation, or this rejection IF it happened or Avigdor Lieberman) but over time we see Israel as an ally and we support the concept of a Jewish State.

            My opinion is that if you want American Liberal support for this or you think it is going to happen then you need to define this in terms that American Liberals can get behind. There is far more history to this conflict than what Tzipi Livni or Ehud Olmert did in 2008. They may have squandered an opportunity then, would that same offer be still rejected if Kadima/Avodah/Meretz were in power now... I don't know.

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 05:01:10 PM PST

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