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View Diary: Explosive leaked documents: The Palestine Papers (363 comments)

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  •  As usual, I think we'd all benefit (8+ / 0-)

    from not making this personal. Not merely for the sake of civility, bot for analytical accuracy: as volleyboy rightly says, what he as an individual writes and thinks is of no more significance than what I think, or what weasel thinks.

    volley, weasel's substantive point is that American 'liberal Zionists' have in practiced been complicit in the occupation. By championing an obviously cynical 'peace process', by buying into the fiction (repeated by implication in your comment, despite being again debunked in the Palestine Papers) that the problem on the Israeli side is confined to Likud and the 'right wing', by perpetuating a narrative of false equivalence, and most of all by failing to do anything about any of this, aside from opposing BDS and so on, 'liberal Zionists' have, intentionally or otherwise, damaged efforts to end the occupation.

    That's the substantive critique. It's being raised now because the content of the papers decisively debunk the standard 'liberal Zionist' positions - support for the "peace process" and the belief that the problem is confined to the Israeli 'right-wing' - and expose as hollow the reflexive 'liberal Zionist' rhetoric about the need for "both sides to compromise", the "rejectionists on both sides", "every side has made mistakes", and so on.

    •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      livosh1, Captain C, Mets102

      As usual, I think we'd all benefit from not making this personal. Not merely for the sake of civility, bot for analytical accuracy:......

      I would thank you for saying this but you just uprated a comment calling myself and others "useful idiots" so pardon me if I don't.

      'liberal Zionists' have, intentionally or otherwise, damaged efforts to end the occupation.

      No, we haven't done things the way the Palestinians or their supporters want us to do things. That is not the same. We don't and won't support BDS because we view it as an attack on Israel in general. It's clear that despite trying to be all things to all people BDS' goals are to bring about a One State solution. WE do support a boycott on settlement made products, but that is not enough for the "Israel de-legitimization crowd".

      I think what is clear here is that you are seeking a solution based on Palestinian terms or what you think would be most fair for the Palestinians. I am not. I am seeking a solution that would secure Israel in the long run as a Jewish State and as the National homeland of the Jewish people.

      In that solution I believe that minorities in Israel and the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories should be treated fairly because it is the right thing for an advanced society to do. At the same time I don't believe in Israeli national suicide.

      You talk about us being reflexive. Well, history didn't start in 2008 with Kadima rejecting a reasonable compromise (IFindeed this is all true). This conflict started a long time ago and so I (and I think) we take that into account.

      I still believe negotiations are the best way to go, so I agree with J Street. However, frankly I am starting to think (thanks to you folks here) that a unilateral withdrawal along modified 1967 lines is what should happen.

      I think we are simply arguing from two different places and there may not be a solution.

      I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 04:24:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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