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View Diary: Egypt Liveblog: Sub-Diary #17 (305 comments)

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  •  I choose to take a different attitude. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FORUS50, James Allen, Mr Robert

    I say that criminality, stupidity, and evil are violations of who we are rather than definitions, and that constantly attributing the actions of our worst people to the nation as a whole only serves the agendas of those people.

    Man goes into cage, cage goes into politics. Shark's in the politics. Our shark.

    by Troubadour on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 02:26:55 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  not the best of heuristics, sorry. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      newpioneer
      •  So you think it serves the United States (0+ / 0-)

        to constantly, vociferously insist that people like George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Glenn Beck, Michelle Bachmann, etc. are representative of our national politics while people who exhibit principle and intelligence are just anomalies?  You think this is a good thing, that defining our country by its darkest moments and ugliest people energizes people to improve it?  I don't see that being the case at all.

        Man goes into cage, cage goes into politics. Shark's in the politics. Our shark.

        by Troubadour on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 02:46:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The truth is what matters. (5+ / 0-)

          But then, you are no doubt someone who regards the past two years' worth of cautious equivocation as "fundamental change."

          •  Of course the truth matters. (0+ / 0-)

            But you're not telling the truth - you're engaging in lazy generalizations in service to an ideological frame that serves no purpose.

            Man goes into cage, cage goes into politics. Shark's in the politics. Our shark.

            by Troubadour on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 03:06:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Truth (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, Troubadour

              Obama gave a speech in Egypt where he said that a nation's foreign policy should be constructed in its national interest.  This could be taken in a number of ways.  For example, "What's good for GE is good for America".

              Troubador is arguing against the common metonymy that a country's leadership should be called by that country's name.  Corvo responds that this quixotic stance is at best unhelpful.

              I guess it's kind of like turning 'him' into 'xe', though, long ago our leaders used the royal we.  When Islam came to India, they demanded that Indians use the singular you to refer to god, since there is only one god, even though it was perceived as less respectful.

              I guess it would be better if we could refer to our leaders by a different name.  I suppose there is one- the other common metonym, Washington.  We must still remember that there's a difference between metonymy and lazy generalizations.

              •  The problem goes beyond metonymy. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                eigenlambda

                I see people - liberal people - making characterizations about "us," "we," "America," etc. based on nothing but things said by Fox News, the Republican Party, or talk radio hosts.  So the situation is that the GOP and its media organs refer to themselves as America, and then left-wing commentators refer to the right-wing as America, and voila, you have this destructive and utterly false meme reinforced from both sides while people who dispute it are derided as "centrists."  The impulse to redefine our country as its lowest common denominator is insane, recklessly clueless, and collectively slanderous, and I'm tired of it.  

                I don't tolerate it from the right, and I won't tolerate it from people on the left who get a selfish ego trip out of pretending to be superior to their country rather than associating their values with it in order to improve it.

                Man goes into cage, cage goes into politics. Shark's in the politics. Our shark.

                by Troubadour on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 04:28:49 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thirty years (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  corvo, Cliss, eigenlambda

                  For thirty years it has been the official policy of the United States of America to support a murderous torturer named Mubarak. Who we always knew to be a murderous torturer.
                  The wounded innocence you push is crap.

                •  The problem with liberals (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  eigenlambda

                  is that they've been happy to play Gaston to the conservative Alphonse since the Nixon Era.

                  And in terms of foreign policy there's never been any difference between the two.  In fact, if anything, since the end of the Teddy Roosevelt Administration the Democrats have been even more belligerent than the Rethugs.

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