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View Diary: House votes to defund Planned Parenthood, Title X (216 comments)

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  •  It might not be a Christian nation now, but (0+ / 1-)
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    it was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Although, you might believe that our founding fathers weren't "Christian" like others on here have tried to claim.  

    That's fine, you have the right to believe that, but it doesn't change the FACTS that during our founding fathers time, society was much more Conservative, and God fearing than it is now. That of course would be reflected in our Constitution.

    If you don't want us to shove our beliefs on you, then don't shove gay marriage on us when we don't want it, yet anyway.

    Ouch, bet he regrets that vote! ;)

    "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

    by aggou on Sat Feb 19, 2011 at 01:28:40 PM PST

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    •  I don't "believe" the FF weren't your kind (1+ / 0-)
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      of Christian. I KNOW it. Yous ee, I am 61, and my education came from Catholic nuns, no from reading revisionist history. I am also from Ntew England, which means I KNOW quite a bit more about those FF than most people do.

      Most of them were Deists, which is NOT the same thing as conservative Christian. And by the time of the Revolution, New England was  a hotbed of radical thought--had been since Roger WIliams founded Providence.  Those colonies were founded on a middle class merchant society, not an aristocratic plantation  quasi-feudal system.  The SOUTH was back then and still is condervative religiously (Southern Baptist Convention was founded because the Southern  Wanna-be nobility  couldn't handle the idea that maybe Christian ministers shouldn't own slaves and stormed out in protest; the Northern Baptists tended to be abolitionists) and politically. If ithad been up to the South, we'd still be a British colony--they only agreed to join in when Jefferson, a DEIST (which is NOT your kind of Christian at all) agreed to remove anymention of slavery from the Declaration.

      Here's the difference between women like me and  conservatives who wanna turn the clock back to 1952.  I want everyone who is an adult human being and not currently married to have the right to marry another consenting, unmarried adult. Period. LEGALLY. NO churches, despite what you've heard from your preacher and the right-wing idiots like Beck would be forced to perfrom or even recognize as sacramentally valid  any marriage--whether of a divorced person or of a sme-sex couple-- because the constitution forbids it. They can't be fporced to do that now--and when DOMA is overturned, they won't be forced to do it then.  Catholics, for instance, must go through a  church court to get an annulment if they wish to remarry in the church. That won't change. A Jewish woman who wishes to divorce and remarry must obtain a get from her hsuband. That wouldn't change for Orhtodox Jews.  Catholics and Orthodox Jews can be legally divorced by the laws of their state and nation--yet unable tor emarry within their faith.  NONE OF THAT WOULD FUCKING CHANGE.

      Gay marriage won't affect you one damned bit. No oen will force you approve of it. Your church won't ahve to preform one or recognize one.  But legally, gay people wouldahev the same rights as straights,. PERIOD. The ENd. You'd still be able to turn up your nose at gay spouses and cosndier them sinners. But they'd finally ahve the same rights as I do.

      In other words, gay marriage won't change your lfie one damned bit. It won't force you to be less of a bigot.

      If you and your ilk succeed in getting abortions banned because of your belief about the beginning of human life, it WILL affect every woman ont he planet. You DO know, don't you, that fudnamentalsit women have abortions in a percentage similar totheir representation int he population? No one is making them have abortions against their will.  In fact I would morally oppose forcing any woman, even if her life were at risk or her fetus so severely damaged as to be non-viable, to have a termiantion agisnt her will.  It's abotu CHOICE.  If you get abortion banend, a LOT of women will be forced to bear chidlren they don't want. Pregnancy is dangerous even today.   So your forcing your beelifs on ther est of us deprives of us a legal right and forces us to be incubators first and women second, while gay marirage doesn't have any negative effect on yoru right to hate gays, cosndier them sinners, and picket alogn with the Westboros Baptist CHurch.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Feb 19, 2011 at 09:51:01 PM PST

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      •  Well, I respect you for your age, and knowledge, I (0+ / 0-)

        would ask you not to cuss if you would. I don't like that language.  

        Second, I never said they were all "my kind of Christian."  I said they were more religious at the time, even those who didn't believe in God were still more religious than those who are atheists today.  Therefore, as I said, they would make laws more conservative than what our society currently would create.

        You also neglect to comment on the option of adoption.  There are millions of women around this country who aren't able to have children, and would love to adopt child from other mothers if they were given the opportunity.  I'm sure you'll say, orphanages would get overrun if we didn't have abortions.  However, that's not true.  Like schools, we would build the necessary amount of facilities needed to take care of the children, until they are adopted. You even have people willing to take care of children in their own homes, while at the same time, looking for loving families to adopt the children.  

        Child should be given the opportunity at life. We were both blessed with that opportunity, and we shouldn't deny that to anyone unborn.  I mean just think some of those babies that have been aborted already, could have been the next President, or law maker, scientist, doctor, musician, teacher, ect. They might possibly have changed history for the better, but we as a society denied them their God given right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, all because we rationalized in our own minds that they weren't living human beings with rights, because we were selfish, and thought we knew better.  

        That's just something I as an American citizen cannot, and will not stand for. I will fight for the unborn until I die because I believe everyone has the right to live life to the fullest, and not be denied what is theres.  I'm only 19, but I have big plans for the future, as long as God gives me, I will teach, and share my beliefs with others.  If you think me crazy, then so be it, I wish you no ill fortune, and hope you might think a little on what I've said and not discard it just because I'm a Conservative.  I gave you my full attention, and only ask you do the same. Thank you.

        "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

        by aggou on Sun Feb 20, 2011 at 03:13:10 PM PST

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        •  Oh, Lord, you're a baby. (0+ / 0-)

          You know zilch. You have no experience, and you speak based on theories.

          Do you even realize that in the world of the 18th century, women were chattel? There was  one person in the marriage, and that was the husband. Women had no rights. Husbands could beat them cheat on them,  take their inheritances--and they couldn't even divorce! People OWNED other human beings in the world of the FF. And no one who didn't own property could vote.

          I wouldn't want to live in that world, and neither would you--though the conservatives party would love to.

          You are just so damned  (sorry if you don't like four letter words; I DO, and sometimes they are the only ones worthy of using, like now) naive. Orphanages were never wonderful places. Foster care sucks.  And there are plenty of babies who need parents, but they're not white, not perfect, not desirable.  Many of the kids born to  mothers who didn't want them end up abused and battered--and eventually end up in foster homes, where they face more fo the same.  People want healthy, perfect white babies.

           You are uterly clueless.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun Feb 20, 2011 at 07:10:38 PM PST

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          •  Excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

            Why are you so close minded? I don't understand it. Liberals talk about being "open" minded, but when it comes down to it you're all hypocrites.

            I don't understand how wanting abortion banned is the same as wanting this country to go back to the 18th century? Don't you think that's quite a stretch to make? I mean, it was still illegal through most of the 20th century, so I'm not following your "logic."  

            There is never a time for cussing, Ms. It limits your vocabulary to only a few "choice" words, instead of the limitless possibilities out there.  Foster care is better than death. You're also racist in your view, you're stuck in the older generation mentality, and you don't understand the times are different. No one gives a flip if a baby is black, white, or brown.  Babies are a gift from God, and anyone fortunate enough to have one knows this.  

            You've got to wake up to the reality that we aren't stuck in segregation anymore.  You might want to believe that Republican's are full of racists that's blatantly false, but you can choose to stick your head in the sand and refuse to see reality for what it is.  There are nearly 7 million women out there, black, white, brown who don't care the color of a babies skin, those 7 million would gladly adopt a child, because they are infertile.  You only want to take the worst news we hear of foster homes, and orphanages and exploit it, but you refuse to see what good has come from foster homes and orphanages, and how the provided the children with great homes where they are loved, and cherished.  

            You should be ashamed for not wanting every child to be given the chance at life, and to live a full life as you have.  Since abortion was made legal, there have been nearly 40 million abortions since it was legalized, which is double what the costs of every war the united states has ever been involved with since we became a nation. 40 million human's that never got the chance to fall in love, 40 million that never got to speak their first words, never got to meet their parents, never got to explore their world all because you people were selfish and didn't want to be burdened with having to take care of a child.  If a person were to be rapped, which is horrible in and of itself, you shouldn't add a second horrible act on to another. Two wrongs don't make a right.  Orphanages, and foster homes aren't what they used to be, they are much better, and safer for children than they were 30 years ago.  

            I am not clueless, and I'm sure you'd never say that about a 19 year old liberal.  I find it distasteful that you would even think such a thing.  There are people who at age 5 are smarter than you and I could ever dream of being, and I don't use theories, I have facts on my side. My brothers girl friend had an abortion, and we didn't find out till 3 years later. She broke his heart, he wanted to raise the child, but she was too selfish to wait. That's sick, especially when you've got so many people out there just like my brother was who want to take and raise the child, but the mother only sees it as a burden on her.  How long till you see how indecent this act is? Wake up to reality, before it's too late. I have a nephew, or a niece that I will not get to meet until I get to  Heaven, which saddens me that they won't have to opportunities I've had, but at least I know I will see them eventually.  

            Don't dwell on the evil that goes on, wake up to the good that happens every day, don't be close minded and blind to it, embrace it, and be thankful we have people willing to love.  Christ loves you more than you know, he died on a cross for the entire world, all the sin's we've ever committed. I don't know of anyone who would be willing to die for wrong's I've down.  How much more loving could you get? He want's you to  be saved, please listen, and don't blow me off again.  I will be praying for you, and I hope you find understanding soon.  I have to go to bed now, I have college to get to in the morning.  Goodnight Ms.  

            "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

            by aggou on Sun Feb 20, 2011 at 09:03:21 PM PST

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            •  You are too young to grasp a lot. (0+ / 0-)

              I will never see abortion as indecent. I see it as necessary. But then I am old enough to remember women bleeding to death or dying of septic shock. Because THAT is what happens when you ban abortion. WOMEN DIE. But I guesd they don't matter to you because they've sinned by having sex and are jsut incubators on feet--which is precisely what you will do if you ban abortion.

              I had a friend who gave her baby up for adoption--to this day, every time she hears about an adopted child being abused, she worries that it was her son. And it happens all too often.

              Foster care is a horror. Try learning some facts  before you say it's better than death. In many cases,it's not.

              Or try talking to people who've beena bused. My husband was such a one. Good family to the outside world, but his father was a batterer of his wife and children.  

              Try reading this:

              Frankly, if your brother is like you, I can understand why she didn't tell him she was pregnant.  It was her body, her choice--not his. Tell him to get some therapy from a secular counselor.

              I have a personals tory to tell you.  My favorite cousin, married, mother of two, became pregnant with her third child. It was a wanted baby.  Int he second trimester they realized the fetus was extremely defective. It had [ a anecephaly  ]and [ hycrocephaly]. It was unlikely it would live more than hours, or at best days, outside the uterus even if carried to term.

              My cousin was plus-size woman--not fat but tall and big-bones. SHe also smoked (this was in the  mid 70s. She tended to have high blood pressure, and thus a pre-disposition to pre-eclampsia. When the defect was discovered, doctors recommended an immediate abortion to protect her health.  She was still a Catholic at that time, and she consulted three priests. Two of them told her she must wait until the 7th month to "give it a chance for life" event hough it wasn't actually viable outside the uterus. She waited, and in the 7th month has a C section. The fetus never took a breath. FYI, a C section is major surgery, takes a long tiem to recover from, and is considerably more dangerous tot he woman than a D&C early on.

              And a small bit of history for you: the original abortion laws were designed to protect WOMEN from dying of illelal abortions--fetal worship is modern trend. Back before  abortion was legal, it was very dangerous. Depserate women would try anything to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy.

              My point with the FF was simple: you seemed to think because the FF were more conservative than 21st century Americans, that was a good reason to ban  abortion.  It isn't. By that logic, women shouldn't be able to get a divorce and a married couple would still be one legal person: the husband. A wife wouldn't be able to get credit separate from her husband; that was the norm into the mid to late 70s. A woman wouldn't be paid the same as a man (she still isn't--but that's another argument).  African-AMericans would still be slaves.

              In otehr words, ideas change as knowledge expands. And the law recognize that.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 06:24:43 AM PST

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              •  Look, you're taking this whole conversation (0+ / 0-)

                about abortion and blowing it way out of proportion.  I hate we use to have slavery, I'm not for it, nor will I ever be, so why try and infuse that into your statement as if I'm approving of that.

                I believe if a woman can do the work just as well as any male counterpart, then she should get paid the same as him, if she's doing as much work, if she's doing more work, then she should get paid more than him. , I say a person should get paid based on their productivity, not their gender.

                I don't see why a woman wouldn't be on the same plan as her husband, if they're married, but if she wants her own, then they should talk it out and find a common ground on the issue.  If the woman is a single person, or single mother, she should get all the credit she needs to support herself.  

                I don't want to go back to the way most of life was back then, just a few key principles like abortion I believe are wrong, and should be made illegal.  Don't put words in my mouth cause the truth will always find its way back to the surface.

                You like to stereotype Conservatives into the evil demons, but your logic is very flawed.  Why don't you do a little research before clumping me in with certain groups of people that I have nothing to do with.  Fact of the matter is, there are racists that are Democrats and Republicans. There are those who are pro-life and pro-choice in the Republican and Democrat parties. There are those in both parties who don't want women to be paid for the jobs they do, if they're doing the same, or more work than a man.  

                You need to consider that we aren't all created the same way.  We all have crazies who think weird things that aren't the norm in both of our parties, but claiming things to be true, without actual facts isn't a good way to build your argument.  

                "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

                by aggou on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:32:27 AM PST

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                •  I live in the SOuth surrounded by folks like you (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't have to do research. I LIVE it every damned day. Sorry, I cussed and offended you. DEAL WITH IT. Put on your Big GIrl or Boy Panties. And I noticr you chose not to comment on my cousin's situation. Or that of my friend who gave up her child for adoption. Nor do you bother doing research on the horrors of the foster care system, which is a horror story Quentin Tarentino could begin to amtch.

                   Yes, I DO see most conservatives as problems--not demons. Although some of them, like Chris Evans ARE monsters in my book, men who want women like my cousin to carry a brainless fetus until it begins to decay in her uterus,  want hospitals to be able to refuse to do a D&C for a woman who is hemorrhaging because it offends their conscience, men who want to redefine rape so it only applies to women whoa re sufficiently hurt or whose  definition of "life of the mother" is when she's ten mintues away from death. THEY are monsters, who don't value WOMEN'S lives, just fetuses--until they're born, and then they want no support or help from t he government for these women. They're HUGE problems for those of us who want social justice. They want no health care for the poor and workign poor. No WIC. No aid for clinics that do conraception and women's health if as a tiny aprt of their practice they perform abortions (Planned Parenthood dopes 97% of its time on women's gynie care and birth control--fund them 97% for cryin' out loud).

                  I have lived from Miami to Maine. I've been  Navy Wife for 15 years. I've lived  among conservatives for thelast 8 years, and from 84-91.  I am a WICCAN, a non-Christian who has had her car keyed with hate phrases ("Jesus Hates WItches") over a stupid bumper sticker that read "My other car is a broom." I've had our religion used as a reason for a TRO by an ex-BiL because my husband stood up to him and refused to allow him to verbally and physically abuse his baby sister ( ex-BiL was four inches taller and 40 pounds heavier). I've had a checkout line closed so that someoen could follow mearoudn a store chain called Hobby Lobby which is owned by conervative Christians. FOr the crime fo wearign my peantacle.

                  More importantly, I used to be a rape crisis counselor. I suggest you read the diary I wrote before this one, about a client  I had who was TWELVE when she was raped by a neighbor.  Conservatiuves today wouldn't haev permited her ana bortion because it was only "statutory rape"--it wasn't; he threatened to beat her if she didn't give in, but there were nomarks on her body.  I used to escort  rape victims who chose not to report because they knew they couldn't ID their rapist or feared not being beleived (STILL a huge problem) to Planned Parenthood for STD testing and later for pregnancy testing. If they needed it, I accompanied them for termiantions.   Men who would force them to bear the chidl of their rapists are those wonderful cosnervaitves you defend--m0ost of hwom also want to defund constraception, which means MORE< not fewer abortion--because int heir twisted minds the vague possibility that hte Pill or Plan B might prevent a tiny clump of cells from implanting in a uterus, is reason enough to limit women to the diaphragm and condom which have a real world failure rate of 15-20%--more abortions, nto fewer.

                  Most of all I despise conservatives becauser I lvied 30 minutes from the two clincis which performed abortions and whuich were bombed in 1984 by a couple of yo0ugn CHruistians your age. I drove by one fo those clinics four tiems a day. The protestors were out there every damned (yes, damned) day harassign women, most of whom were there for PAP smears and birth control. They behaved the same way to the rape victims I escorted years ago--callign them "babykillers". One of thsoe clincis had their doctor murdered by a self-righteou, "pro-life" cosnervative several years alter.  Youy can view womena s selfish murdereds--well, I cnoseider a great number of ":pro-life" types  folks whoa id and abet murders.  You may nto give money tot hem--but if you work with Operation Rescue, you are likelys ilently cheering. Which makes YOU and yours part of MY problem.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:26:21 PM PST

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                  •  Wow, I'm sorry for those experiences you've had (0+ / 0-)

                    to deal with.  That's not right for anyone to do, no matter how much you disagree with what they believe.  No Christian should treat anyone like that.  I don't understand how why people are that bold.  Fear is no way to communicate. Gah, people need to grow up.  

                    I'm vehemently against any kind of violence towards abortion clinics, and doctors who perform abortions.  Violence is no way to effectively get your point across,  and I would condemn them for what they did.   Taking a life through senseless violence only makes what you believe seem crazy.  We should always have peaceful demonstrations when we protest what we feel strongly about. That should be the core of our democracy.  

                    Why don't you just move to a place where people are closer to your ideology?  You don't have to live around conservatives, and Republicans if you don't want to. You've got states like MA, CT, NY, and if you don't like the cold, you've got southern CA, also Miami.  

                    That is horrible what happened to your cousin.  Losing a child must be the worst feeling in the world, and no parent should have to deal with that.  However, doctors have been wrong on more than one occasion, not necessarily their fault, but computers aren't perfect, and can be off.  I have a friend who was supposed to be born mentally retarded, but she is completely healthy. I know about C sections, my sister needed one with her first child. She was in labor for 37 hours before the doctors finally decided to give her a C section.  

                    You can't condemn "conservatives" as an entire group for a person calling themselves "pro-life," and killing a doctor who performs abortions.  That a grotesque stereotype, and makes you, or anyone who lumps a group of people into that category sound foolish.  You have those are the pro-choice side that attack pro-life people.  As I've stated earlier, we have crazy people on both sides of every issue, but we cannot let them define who we are as people.  We have to single them out as individuals who need serious help.  

                    I do not give money, or work with any political action comities, nor do I work with any pro-life organizations.  However, we do have a local organization that gives biblical counsel to single mothers that are pregnant, and have either been abused by a husband, or boy friend.  If the mother doesn't want to keep the child, they talk to her about adoption and try and find the most loving families they can find that would provide the care and nurture the baby would need.  They also advise them against abortions, and show them from the bible that God sees it as a baby at the moment of conception.  

                    Ultimately, it's up to the mother to decide. They just give them the information, and the mother decides what she wants to do.  A friend of mine works at the local clinic and she said that she has never once had a mother come back, after she's had an abortion and say, Oh wow, I'm so glad I had an abortion it fixed all my problems. They've all wished they had chosen to keep the child, and I notice that a lot.  From what I see around me, the women who had an abortion at a young age tend to be anti-abortion when they are older, and realize that abortion isn't the answer.  It's not the case for all women, but I see more that fit that description, than don't.  

                    Other than those sad interactions you've had with "Christians," have you read the Bible much? If not, I would encourage you to just take a look through it, and just read here and there.  There is so much truth that is inside of the Bible.  Christ came and died on a cross for your sin, and my sin.  He died for you, so you could be with him in Heaven. He loves you with all his heart, and would love nothing more than you to come to know him as your savior. I have such a peace, and I know without a doubt where I'll be in eternity. I'm praying for you because I care about you, and where you will spend eternity.

                    "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

                    by aggou on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:48:11 PM PST

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                    •  Your naivete is showing. (0+ / 0-)

                      Why don't we just pack up and move? DO you know how much a move to New England would cost? Have you got a clue? We own more than a futon and TV. We have furniture. Not to mention we'd need a JOB to move to.

                      We live here because when my husband got out of the Navy, he had a CNA job. Nursing home got sold. He got laid off. We moved into hsi mother becuase his HUGE $15K pension ( his for spending 23 years in the Navy). He went back to college to get a nursing degree to become employable at a livable salary, but had to drop out becasue we need to care for my father who suffered from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. He;'s trying to get back in school but the budget shortfall may kill the Hope scholarship. And we're paying the mortgage on a home that's lost a lot of its value. We can't afford to move. Thank you, Geiorgie Bush.

                      Life isn't as black and white as it seems at your age.

                      As for your interpretation of the Bible--it's wrong. Jews, who OWN the Old Testament, do not regard a fetus as human till it draws breath. If a pregnant women is injured and it kills the fetus, there's a much smaller debt owed than if  a born child were killed.  The line you're thinking of about God knowing you in your mother's womb simply means God  is all-knowing, not that you are human being from conception. NOTHING in the Bible says that.

                      Here's soem ifno from peopel who DO know what the Bible says:

                      Genesis 2:7 God made Adam's body out of the dust of the earth. Later, the "man became a living soul" only after God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."

                      Some suggest that this passage seems to state clearly that Adam's personhood started when he took his first breath. Following this reasoning, a newborn would become human after it starts breathing. If a fetus is only potentially human, then an abortion would not terminate the life of a human person. The most important word in the Hebrew Scriptures that was used to describe a person was "nephesh;" it appears 755 times in the Old Testament. It is translated as "living soul" in the above passage. One scholar, H.W. Wolff, 1 believes that the word's root means "to breath." He argues that during Old Testament times, "Living creatures are in this way exactly defined in Hebrew as creatures that breathe."

                      An alternate interpretation is that Adam and Eve were unique creations. They did not start as a fetus, and were not born. They were fully formed as adults. It is not valid to compare a newborn who has not yet breathed to a fully formed adult who has not yet breathed.

                      bullet    Genesis 25:21-23 "...Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

                      The passage refers to the twin fetuses of Rebekah as being "nations." They are clearly not nations at that stage of development; the word has to be interpreted symbolically. They are rather two fetuses who were later born and whose subsequent descendents -- according to the Bible -- became two nations. The passage also refers to the twin fetuses as "banim:" a Hebrew word which almost always means a "newborns" or "infants," or "children." The ancient Hebrews did not have a separate word to describe "fetuses." So they used the same word to describe fetuses that they also used to refer to children.

                      Some suggest that since the ancient Hebrews used "banim" to refer to fetuses, newborns, infants and children, that they regarded all four as simply stages of human personhood.

                      English translations of the Bible use the term "children" here; this would more accurately be translated as "fetuses" except that the latter primarily a medical term. Again, the passage does not address the main question: were the fetuses full persons, or are they potential persons at the time?

                      bullet    Genesis 38:24 Tamar's pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at that time. This was positive proof that she had been sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law Judah ordered that she be burned alive for her crime. If Tamar's twin fetuses had been considered to be human beings, one would have expected her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action. (Judah later changed his mind when he found out that he was the man responsible for Tamar's pregnancy.)

                      If the fetuses that she was carrying are not to be regarded as living human beings at the end of her first trimester of pregnancy, then causing their death would not be a great moral concern.

                      However, if the twin fetuses are to be considered as human persons, then it seems strange that they would be considered of such little value as to allow them to be killed for the alleged sin of the woman carrying them. In this latter case, we see another example of a theme that runs through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation: that it is acceptable to kill or otherwise punish innocent persons for the sins or crimes of others -- the pregnant woman in this case.

                      An alternate interpretation is that innocent persons were often punished for the sins of one member of the family. See Joshua 7:21, Daniel 3:28-19, and Daniel 6:24). So it would be normal to give little concern to the fetuses.

                      bullet    Exodus 13:1-2 "The Lord said to Moses, 'Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether [hu]man or animal.'" Throughout much of the ancient Middle East, the firstborn son in each family was ritually murdered as a sacrifice to the Gods.  However if the first son was preceded either by the birth of a girl or a miscarriage, then the ceremony is not performed, as the son was not the first offering of the womb. In later years, this practice evolved into a substitute animal sacrifice, or a cash donation to the temple, or a dedication of the child to their deity. "...the ancestors of the Israelites probably at one time actually sacrificed their first born children, as Genesis 22:1-14 implies." 2  These passages relate to infanticide, not abortion, because the infant would be killed after birth. But it shows the low regard for newborn humans during that era. Other references of human sacrifices in the Hebrew Scriptures are found at:
                      bullet    Judges 11:29-40: Jephthah promises God that he will make a human sacrifice of the first person who comes to greet him when he returns home after a successful battle. He later ritually sacrifices his only daughter.
                      bullet    I Kings 16:34: This passage may refer to the killing by Hiel of his two children during the reconstruction of Jericho. Archeological excavations there have uncovered the remains of persons who seem to have been sacrificed "to obtain divine favor."
                      bullet    II Kings 16:3: Ahaz, king of Judah, murdered his son as a human sacrifice.
                      bullet    II Kings 17:17: The people of Judah abandoned worship at the temple in Jerusalem. They were said to have burned their children as human sacrifices to Baal.
                      bullet    II Kings 21:6: Manasseh burned his son as a human sacrifice to Baal.
                      bullet    Isaiah 57:5: Isaiah, speaking for the Lord, comments on the practice of the people of Israel in sacrificing their children, "down in the valleys, under overhanging rocks."
                      bullet    Jeremiah 7:31: Jeremiah, speaking for the Lord, criticizes the people of Judah for burning "their sons and daughters in the fire."
                      bullet    etc.

                      bullet    Exodus 20:13"You shall not murder." This verse is often mistranslated "Thou shalt not kill." Murder is actually being referred to -- the killing of a human person.

                      Since the Jewish religion has traditionally interpreted the Torah as implying that a fetus as achieving full personhood only when it is half emerged from the birth canal, this verse would not apply to abortion.

                      bullet    Exodus 21:22 If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

                      One source comments that because some Bible translations (KJV, RSV) use the phrase "woman with child" that God considers a fetus to be a human child. 3 But other translations render the phrase simply as "pregnant woman" and make no direct reference to the fetus.

                      This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person.

                      Verse 22 is confusing.  The key Hebrew word "yatsa" literally means to "lose her offspring." 4 This has been translated in different Bible versions as:
                      bullet    A miscarriage: This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay at a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.

                      bullet    premature birth: This implies that the fetus is born earlier than full term. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that neither the woman nor the baby dies) then the man would pay a fine. One possible interpretation of this passage would be that if the premature baby died, then the man responsible had killed a human person, and would be tried for murder. The verse is ambiguous at this point.


                      2 Kings 2:22-24 This describes Prophet Elisha, a bald man, and his interaction with a group of young boys. They called him by a derisive term: "baldhead." Elisha was angry. In an act of black magic, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Two female bears came out of the woods and mauled (and presumably killed) 42 of the boys. This passage has nothing to do with abortion, but does indicate the low regard that Elisha had towards the life of children (because he issued a curse) and that God had towards the children (because he presumably sent the two bears to kill the boys).
                      bullet    2 Kings 15:16 He [Menahem, king of Israel] sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. He apparently was angry that the people of Tiphsah refused to open the gates of the city. Considering the state of medical sophistication at the time, all of the pregnant women and their fetuses probably died. The king obviously gave no value to the life of a fetus. Yet there was no condemnation of his action.
                      bullet    Job 3:2-4; Job 3:11-19; Job 10:18-19: Here, Job is suffering. God instructed Satan to preserve Job's life while killing his children and destroying everything of value in Job's life, including his health. Job says that it would have been better if he had died at or before birth, so that he would never have experienced such misfortune. This passage seems to imply that a terminated pregnancy is better than bringing into the world a baby who will suffer greatly. It also indicates the low value that God placed on the life of children.
                      bullet    Psalms 51:5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me. The second part of the verse is considered a reference to "original sin" by most Christians. This is the concept that Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and that all subsequent humans have inherited their sin. Thus, the writer's mother was in a state of sin when he, David, was conceived. Some conservative Christian commentators feel that David's reference to his own conception implies that the author regarded himself as a human person, continuously from conception, to birth, to adulthood. 1 But the passage has an alternative interpretation. David may have believed that before he developed into a human, he was a pre-human fetus; and before that, he was a pre-fetal fertilized ovum. i.e. that at conception, he was a living entity which later developed into David, the human person.
                      bullet    Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins [formed my inner parts]: thou has covered [formed] me in my mother's womb. Again, this describes Jehovah observing and controlling the development of a fetus during pregnancy. No reference is made to miscarriage or abortion. The passage does not deal with the critical question of whether the fetus is a person. It merely describes how a fetus develops.
                      bullet    Psalms 139:16 "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." The meaning is obscured in the King James version by the ancient language. In modern English it means that: "God saw by body before I was born. The days allotted to me had already been entered in God's book before any of them ever began." This would seem to imply that during pregnancy, the eventual life span of the resulting newborn had already been decided upon and recorded. It also seems to imply that the person's days begin at birth. i.e. at birth, a fetus transitions from being human life to a human person. If this is correct, then it means that abortion kills a potential person in the womb, not an actual human person.
                      bullet    Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 "...But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Here, the author talks about acts of oppression and the suffering that this brings to innocent people. The author -- traditionally believed to be Solomon -- appears to refer to an interrupted pregnancy being better than a live birth, if the person born would suffer great injustices and pain.
                      bullet    Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 If a man begats 100 children...and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say that an untimely birth [a miscarriage] is better than he. The passage implies that a person can have many children and a long life; but if he is not motivated by love and goodness, and if he is not properly buried, then it would have been better if he had not been born alive. The suggestion here is that a terminated pregnancy (one that does not produce a live birth) is better than a pregnancy that produced a life that is empty and miserable.


                      In other words, it's not as simple as you make it.

                      PLEASE do not pray for me. I regard it as a curse because it means you're trying to turn me away from a faith I believe in as truly and deeply--probably a lot more deeply because I've examined many religions before settling on my own-- as you do Christianity. More to the point, it's damned disrespectful for you to think that you know what's best for my soul.  I would never do that to you--try to convince you to take my Path.

                       I know Christianity backwards and forwards. I had 16 years of Catholic education, and a minor in theology.  I've studied under soem theological heavy hitters. I've read the Bible from cover to cover several times. I regard Jesus as an avatar of the One--I don't believe there is One True Way for everyone, and I completely reject a Deity who would condemn someone to hell merely for praying to the wrong name as YHWH in the Pro5estant version doe (Catholics believe that while Cathoilicism is the BEST way, Protestant Christians are also Saved, and that people who try to live a life in the imitation of Christ--a decent honorable, loving life--are all going to heaven, whatever their faith).

                      I am Wiccan. has a good section on my faith. It doesn't involve worshiping demons. It sure as hell doesn't believe in hell or Satan--he's part of your mythology, not ours. I beleive we all find the right path ofr ourselves at the time, and that all Paths are One, all Deities are One. I see Deity sa being at the center of a circle with many lines leading tot hat center.  SOem apths may lead away--Naziis, inotlerance, anythign that requires you to kill for your God. But in general msot faiths ahve the same udnerpinning of the Godlen RUle, of loving your neighbor and treating hima s you wish to be treated--for the love of God. We look for differencesm but msot fiaths at base teach the sme thing; the details defer, but they tend to be cultural accretions.

                      I am glad you don't support violent opposition to abortion. Sadly, many do (even if they don't admit it to themselves). Operation Rescue does, tacitly if not concretely. Others view people like Scott Roeder and Paul Hill as heroes. They're not. It takes ni coyurage to gun down an unarmed man.

                      Adoption doesn't work for everyone. And it';s not a panacea--some kdis end up in bad homes. ANd not all children are gonna be adopted--non-whtie kids and those with handicaps spend their lfie int he sytem,.Foster care sucks mightily. ANd teenage mtoehrs who keep their babies tend to stay in poverty ebcause they drop out of school and are stuck inm inimum wage jobs.

                      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                      by irishwitch on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 02:50:23 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You neglected other verses in what you posted (0+ / 0-)

                        For example, Luke 1:41 says, "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.  Clearly it shows the Bible considers it a human, by using the word "babe," instead of a lump of cells, or mass, ect.  You also have, like your post stated, Gen 25:22 "and the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus?" There is no term for "fetus" in the Bible because it's a child. The Bible has no fallacies in it, it's the very essence of God.  That website did a horrible job of trying to clarify some of these verses they chose.  

                        You just wonderfully stated why it's a horrible time to move, and clearly how hard it is, so why don't you stop complaining about the "people" around you. I know how hard it is to move thank you. I helped friends move from here to FL this past summer, I saw friends move to IL, and from GA to CO. I know the costs of moving. So stop treating my like an idiot.

                        I'm sorry, but I can do nothing else but share with you what is in the Bible.  If you've ever actually read the Bible like you claim, you know it says in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." So I cannot sit idle by and not share with you what changed my life, when God has given Christian's a mandate to share what we know with others.  The Bible has been around for thousands of years, and no matter how much people try to take it out of society, and yet it still changes peoples lives everyday. The truth hurts, but it's needed in our society.  Truth like the Bible  "The Word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." as stated in Hebrews 4:12.  

                        You are correct in that most religious are similar on the idea of there being 1 God. However, many people, for whatever reason find it hard to believe that there is only 1 way to Heaven, you even said you believe that everyone finds their own way.  Why do you truly believe that though? What have you read that convinces you this is the truth, and that there couldn't possibly be only one way to peace and happiness like I believe?  Catholics add works with faith, Muslims do to an extent, and then you have the religious fanatics in the Muslim religion that believe to get into Heaven they must die a martyr. You have Buddhism that says we are reborn in death, as another form of energy, Hinduism that believes in multiple gods.  You clearly believe there is something beyond this life, whether you acknowledge it or not.  Otherwise, you wouldn't bother with anything that doesn't deal with science.  You yourself said you believe we find our path, but where does that path lead? You said you don't believe in Hell, so you can't say Heaven.  You cannot believe in Heaven, (which would be a place of peace and rest) if you don't, deep down believe there is a place of torment, and you want to be kept away from that place.

                        Your condensation about me being and idiot for being 19, and how you said I couldn't possibly know why I believe what I do at my age, as well as you believing what you believe because you've "studied," doesn't bother me.  You can try that tactic all you want, but I remain unfazed because I know what I believe, and why I believe what I do. I'm not some teen who is just saying what I've been taught.  I've seen Christ change my life, and the lives of others around me.  You will either believe the Bible, or you will hate it because you can't stand being told what is moral and what isn't, and I can only pray that everyone in the world comes to a saving faith in Christ, and that no one ever has to suffer for their sin, no matter how much we deserve it.

                        "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

                        by aggou on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:12:25 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  Who's forcing you to get gay-married? (0+ / 0-)

      Oh, right, you're yet another self-righteous fundie turd who can't tell the difference between being made to leave others alone and having your "rights" violated.

      •  Ok, for argumentative purposes, (0+ / 0-)

        you should leave out words that turn off the your reader. Otherwise, you sound conceded and arrogant, and no one will listen to you.  

        Perhaps you should get out of your comfort zone a bit, and go to Conservative websites now and then.  I may disagree with Liberals, but I still come here to see their point of view on an issue I feel one way about, so I can at least come across as more neutral when I talk with people, and not just as a one sided, narrow minded, fool; when having discussions about issues I care about.  

        "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

        by aggou on Sun Feb 20, 2011 at 02:56:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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