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  •  Your naivete is showing. (0+ / 0-)

    Why don't we just pack up and move? DO you know how much a move to New England would cost? Have you got a clue? We own more than a futon and TV. We have furniture. Not to mention we'd need a JOB to move to.

    We live here because when my husband got out of the Navy, he had a CNA job. Nursing home got sold. He got laid off. We moved into hsi mother becuase his HUGE $15K pension ( his for spending 23 years in the Navy). He went back to college to get a nursing degree to become employable at a livable salary, but had to drop out becasue we need to care for my father who suffered from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. He;'s trying to get back in school but the budget shortfall may kill the Hope scholarship. And we're paying the mortgage on a home that's lost a lot of its value. We can't afford to move. Thank you, Geiorgie Bush.

    Life isn't as black and white as it seems at your age.

    As for your interpretation of the Bible--it's wrong. Jews, who OWN the Old Testament, do not regard a fetus as human till it draws breath. If a pregnant women is injured and it kills the fetus, there's a much smaller debt owed than if  a born child were killed.  The line you're thinking of about God knowing you in your mother's womb simply means God  is all-knowing, not that you are human being from conception. NOTHING in the Bible says that.

    Here's soem ifno from peopel who DO know what the Bible says:

    Genesis 2:7 God made Adam's body out of the dust of the earth. Later, the "man became a living soul" only after God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."

    Some suggest that this passage seems to state clearly that Adam's personhood started when he took his first breath. Following this reasoning, a newborn would become human after it starts breathing. If a fetus is only potentially human, then an abortion would not terminate the life of a human person. The most important word in the Hebrew Scriptures that was used to describe a person was "nephesh;" it appears 755 times in the Old Testament. It is translated as "living soul" in the above passage. One scholar, H.W. Wolff, 1 believes that the word's root means "to breath." He argues that during Old Testament times, "Living creatures are in this way exactly defined in Hebrew as creatures that breathe."

    An alternate interpretation is that Adam and Eve were unique creations. They did not start as a fetus, and were not born. They were fully formed as adults. It is not valid to compare a newborn who has not yet breathed to a fully formed adult who has not yet breathed.

    bullet    Genesis 25:21-23 "...Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

    The passage refers to the twin fetuses of Rebekah as being "nations." They are clearly not nations at that stage of development; the word has to be interpreted symbolically. They are rather two fetuses who were later born and whose subsequent descendents -- according to the Bible -- became two nations. The passage also refers to the twin fetuses as "banim:" a Hebrew word which almost always means a "newborns" or "infants," or "children." The ancient Hebrews did not have a separate word to describe "fetuses." So they used the same word to describe fetuses that they also used to refer to children.

    Some suggest that since the ancient Hebrews used "banim" to refer to fetuses, newborns, infants and children, that they regarded all four as simply stages of human personhood.

    English translations of the Bible use the term "children" here; this would more accurately be translated as "fetuses" except that the latter primarily a medical term. Again, the passage does not address the main question: were the fetuses full persons, or are they potential persons at the time?

    bullet    Genesis 38:24 Tamar's pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at that time. This was positive proof that she had been sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law Judah ordered that she be burned alive for her crime. If Tamar's twin fetuses had been considered to be human beings, one would have expected her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action. (Judah later changed his mind when he found out that he was the man responsible for Tamar's pregnancy.)

    If the fetuses that she was carrying are not to be regarded as living human beings at the end of her first trimester of pregnancy, then causing their death would not be a great moral concern.

    However, if the twin fetuses are to be considered as human persons, then it seems strange that they would be considered of such little value as to allow them to be killed for the alleged sin of the woman carrying them. In this latter case, we see another example of a theme that runs through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation: that it is acceptable to kill or otherwise punish innocent persons for the sins or crimes of others -- the pregnant woman in this case.

    An alternate interpretation is that innocent persons were often punished for the sins of one member of the family. See Joshua 7:21, Daniel 3:28-19, and Daniel 6:24). So it would be normal to give little concern to the fetuses.

    bullet    Exodus 13:1-2 "The Lord said to Moses, 'Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether [hu]man or animal.'" Throughout much of the ancient Middle East, the firstborn son in each family was ritually murdered as a sacrifice to the Gods.  However if the first son was preceded either by the birth of a girl or a miscarriage, then the ceremony is not performed, as the son was not the first offering of the womb. In later years, this practice evolved into a substitute animal sacrifice, or a cash donation to the temple, or a dedication of the child to their deity. "...the ancestors of the Israelites probably at one time actually sacrificed their first born children, as Genesis 22:1-14 implies." 2  These passages relate to infanticide, not abortion, because the infant would be killed after birth. But it shows the low regard for newborn humans during that era. Other references of human sacrifices in the Hebrew Scriptures are found at:
    bullet    Judges 11:29-40: Jephthah promises God that he will make a human sacrifice of the first person who comes to greet him when he returns home after a successful battle. He later ritually sacrifices his only daughter.
    bullet    I Kings 16:34: This passage may refer to the killing by Hiel of his two children during the reconstruction of Jericho. Archeological excavations there have uncovered the remains of persons who seem to have been sacrificed "to obtain divine favor."
    bullet    II Kings 16:3: Ahaz, king of Judah, murdered his son as a human sacrifice.
    bullet    II Kings 17:17: The people of Judah abandoned worship at the temple in Jerusalem. They were said to have burned their children as human sacrifices to Baal.
    bullet    II Kings 21:6: Manasseh burned his son as a human sacrifice to Baal.
    bullet    Isaiah 57:5: Isaiah, speaking for the Lord, comments on the practice of the people of Israel in sacrificing their children, "down in the valleys, under overhanging rocks."
    bullet    Jeremiah 7:31: Jeremiah, speaking for the Lord, criticizes the people of Judah for burning "their sons and daughters in the fire."
    bullet    etc.

    bullet    Exodus 20:13"You shall not murder." This verse is often mistranslated "Thou shalt not kill." Murder is actually being referred to -- the killing of a human person.

    Since the Jewish religion has traditionally interpreted the Torah as implying that a fetus as achieving full personhood only when it is half emerged from the birth canal, this verse would not apply to abortion.

    bullet    Exodus 21:22 If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    One source comments that because some Bible translations (KJV, RSV) use the phrase "woman with child" that God considers a fetus to be a human child. 3 But other translations render the phrase simply as "pregnant woman" and make no direct reference to the fetus.

    This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person.

    Verse 22 is confusing.  The key Hebrew word "yatsa" literally means to "lose her offspring." 4 This has been translated in different Bible versions as:
    bullet    A miscarriage: This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay at a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.

    bullet    premature birth: This implies that the fetus is born earlier than full term. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that neither the woman nor the baby dies) then the man would pay a fine. One possible interpretation of this passage would be that if the premature baby died, then the man responsible had killed a human person, and would be tried for murder. The verse is ambiguous at this point.

    2 Kings 2:22-24 This describes Prophet Elisha, a bald man, and his interaction with a group of young boys. They called him by a derisive term: "baldhead." Elisha was angry. In an act of black magic, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Two female bears came out of the woods and mauled (and presumably killed) 42 of the boys. This passage has nothing to do with abortion, but does indicate the low regard that Elisha had towards the life of children (because he issued a curse) and that God had towards the children (because he presumably sent the two bears to kill the boys).
    bullet    2 Kings 15:16 He [Menahem, king of Israel] sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. He apparently was angry that the people of Tiphsah refused to open the gates of the city. Considering the state of medical sophistication at the time, all of the pregnant women and their fetuses probably died. The king obviously gave no value to the life of a fetus. Yet there was no condemnation of his action.
    bullet    Job 3:2-4; Job 3:11-19; Job 10:18-19: Here, Job is suffering. God instructed Satan to preserve Job's life while killing his children and destroying everything of value in Job's life, including his health. Job says that it would have been better if he had died at or before birth, so that he would never have experienced such misfortune. This passage seems to imply that a terminated pregnancy is better than bringing into the world a baby who will suffer greatly. It also indicates the low value that God placed on the life of children.
    bullet    Psalms 51:5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me. The second part of the verse is considered a reference to "original sin" by most Christians. This is the concept that Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and that all subsequent humans have inherited their sin. Thus, the writer's mother was in a state of sin when he, David, was conceived. Some conservative Christian commentators feel that David's reference to his own conception implies that the author regarded himself as a human person, continuously from conception, to birth, to adulthood. 1 But the passage has an alternative interpretation. David may have believed that before he developed into a human, he was a pre-human fetus; and before that, he was a pre-fetal fertilized ovum. i.e. that at conception, he was a living entity which later developed into David, the human person.
    bullet    Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins [formed my inner parts]: thou has covered [formed] me in my mother's womb. Again, this describes Jehovah observing and controlling the development of a fetus during pregnancy. No reference is made to miscarriage or abortion. The passage does not deal with the critical question of whether the fetus is a person. It merely describes how a fetus develops.
    bullet    Psalms 139:16 "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." The meaning is obscured in the King James version by the ancient language. In modern English it means that: "God saw by body before I was born. The days allotted to me had already been entered in God's book before any of them ever began." This would seem to imply that during pregnancy, the eventual life span of the resulting newborn had already been decided upon and recorded. It also seems to imply that the person's days begin at birth. i.e. at birth, a fetus transitions from being human life to a human person. If this is correct, then it means that abortion kills a potential person in the womb, not an actual human person.
    bullet    Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 "...But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Here, the author talks about acts of oppression and the suffering that this brings to innocent people. The author -- traditionally believed to be Solomon -- appears to refer to an interrupted pregnancy being better than a live birth, if the person born would suffer great injustices and pain.
    bullet    Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 If a man begats 100 children...and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say that an untimely birth [a miscarriage] is better than he. The passage implies that a person can have many children and a long life; but if he is not motivated by love and goodness, and if he is not properly buried, then it would have been better if he had not been born alive. The suggestion here is that a terminated pregnancy (one that does not produce a live birth) is better than a pregnancy that produced a life that is empty and miserable.

    In other words, it's not as simple as you make it.

    PLEASE do not pray for me. I regard it as a curse because it means you're trying to turn me away from a faith I believe in as truly and deeply--probably a lot more deeply because I've examined many religions before settling on my own-- as you do Christianity. More to the point, it's damned disrespectful for you to think that you know what's best for my soul.  I would never do that to you--try to convince you to take my Path.

     I know Christianity backwards and forwards. I had 16 years of Catholic education, and a minor in theology.  I've studied under soem theological heavy hitters. I've read the Bible from cover to cover several times. I regard Jesus as an avatar of the One--I don't believe there is One True Way for everyone, and I completely reject a Deity who would condemn someone to hell merely for praying to the wrong name as YHWH in the Pro5estant version doe (Catholics believe that while Cathoilicism is the BEST way, Protestant Christians are also Saved, and that people who try to live a life in the imitation of Christ--a decent honorable, loving life--are all going to heaven, whatever their faith).

    I am Wiccan. has a good section on my faith. It doesn't involve worshiping demons. It sure as hell doesn't believe in hell or Satan--he's part of your mythology, not ours. I beleive we all find the right path ofr ourselves at the time, and that all Paths are One, all Deities are One. I see Deity sa being at the center of a circle with many lines leading tot hat center.  SOem apths may lead away--Naziis, inotlerance, anythign that requires you to kill for your God. But in general msot faiths ahve the same udnerpinning of the Godlen RUle, of loving your neighbor and treating hima s you wish to be treated--for the love of God. We look for differencesm but msot fiaths at base teach the sme thing; the details defer, but they tend to be cultural accretions.

    I am glad you don't support violent opposition to abortion. Sadly, many do (even if they don't admit it to themselves). Operation Rescue does, tacitly if not concretely. Others view people like Scott Roeder and Paul Hill as heroes. They're not. It takes ni coyurage to gun down an unarmed man.

    Adoption doesn't work for everyone. And it';s not a panacea--some kdis end up in bad homes. ANd not all children are gonna be adopted--non-whtie kids and those with handicaps spend their lfie int he sytem,.Foster care sucks mightily. ANd teenage mtoehrs who keep their babies tend to stay in poverty ebcause they drop out of school and are stuck inm inimum wage jobs.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 02:50:23 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  You neglected other verses in what you posted (0+ / 0-)

      For example, Luke 1:41 says, "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.  Clearly it shows the Bible considers it a human, by using the word "babe," instead of a lump of cells, or mass, ect.  You also have, like your post stated, Gen 25:22 "and the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus?" There is no term for "fetus" in the Bible because it's a child. The Bible has no fallacies in it, it's the very essence of God.  That website did a horrible job of trying to clarify some of these verses they chose.  

      You just wonderfully stated why it's a horrible time to move, and clearly how hard it is, so why don't you stop complaining about the "people" around you. I know how hard it is to move thank you. I helped friends move from here to FL this past summer, I saw friends move to IL, and from GA to CO. I know the costs of moving. So stop treating my like an idiot.

      I'm sorry, but I can do nothing else but share with you what is in the Bible.  If you've ever actually read the Bible like you claim, you know it says in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." So I cannot sit idle by and not share with you what changed my life, when God has given Christian's a mandate to share what we know with others.  The Bible has been around for thousands of years, and no matter how much people try to take it out of society, and yet it still changes peoples lives everyday. The truth hurts, but it's needed in our society.  Truth like the Bible  "The Word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." as stated in Hebrews 4:12.  

      You are correct in that most religious are similar on the idea of there being 1 God. However, many people, for whatever reason find it hard to believe that there is only 1 way to Heaven, you even said you believe that everyone finds their own way.  Why do you truly believe that though? What have you read that convinces you this is the truth, and that there couldn't possibly be only one way to peace and happiness like I believe?  Catholics add works with faith, Muslims do to an extent, and then you have the religious fanatics in the Muslim religion that believe to get into Heaven they must die a martyr. You have Buddhism that says we are reborn in death, as another form of energy, Hinduism that believes in multiple gods.  You clearly believe there is something beyond this life, whether you acknowledge it or not.  Otherwise, you wouldn't bother with anything that doesn't deal with science.  You yourself said you believe we find our path, but where does that path lead? You said you don't believe in Hell, so you can't say Heaven.  You cannot believe in Heaven, (which would be a place of peace and rest) if you don't, deep down believe there is a place of torment, and you want to be kept away from that place.

      Your condensation about me being and idiot for being 19, and how you said I couldn't possibly know why I believe what I do at my age, as well as you believing what you believe because you've "studied," doesn't bother me.  You can try that tactic all you want, but I remain unfazed because I know what I believe, and why I believe what I do. I'm not some teen who is just saying what I've been taught.  I've seen Christ change my life, and the lives of others around me.  You will either believe the Bible, or you will hate it because you can't stand being told what is moral and what isn't, and I can only pray that everyone in the world comes to a saving faith in Christ, and that no one ever has to suffer for their sin, no matter how much we deserve it.

      "Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged." Ronald Reagan

      by aggou on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:12:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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