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View Diary: Some Maps to consider... (185 comments)

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  •  It really annoys me... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345

    to see references and comparisons from the struggles with the modern day labor movement with slavery...but I guess that is just free speech...

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 02:05:47 AM PST

    •  I agree about comparing to slavery. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dvogel001, xanthippe2

      There are some huge differences between cheap labor and slavery.  However, I do believe the "conservatives" would vote to make indentured servitude legal if given the opportunity.  

      I also get the diarists point though.  It's the whole greed thing, getting something for nothing.

      •  greed is part of it but there's more... (6+ / 0-)

        some people really benefit (or perceive that they benefit) from that kind of society.  men who don't feel competent in more equal relationships with women, parents who fear loss of control if they limit their method of discipline, business owners who don't want to negotiate with someone who's in a position to really negotiate, and so on.

        it takes more courage, creativity, flexibility, discipline, etc. to tolerate and make use of freedom from rigid social roles and some people just aren't equipped (not genetically but culturally from their parents, church, community, etc.).

        Clinton kind of co-opted this, imo, when he framed a lot of issues in terms of "if you work hard and play by the rules you ought to be able to live a decent life."  That's one way of appealing to people who fear the breakdown of social roles to achieve relatively liberal ends.

        It's the Union vs. the Confederates all over again ...

        by monkeybox on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 05:01:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How can we ever rid ourselves (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wonmug, GMFORD, monkeybox

          of that psychological illness wherein one person must feel power and control over another?

          It really is even the root of greed.

          Our culture rewards sociopathy.

          Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth - Abraham Lincoln

          by Gustogirl on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:50:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The republicans (and some dems) have (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chase, saluda, Gustogirl, Sychotic1, GMFORD

        voted repeatedly for indentured servitude.....credit is the main vehicle.  And they did a fine and dandy job over the last 20 years giving lenders every benefit while taking away any rights from the "customer".

        The credit card problem in this country is not by accident.

    •  I think it is very appropriate (18+ / 0-)

      As heinous as slavery was, there is too much about today's Republican agenda that smacks of it to ignore.  For example, force women to have babies--no abortions, no information about birth control, no such thing as rape if you aren't half dead in the struggle, and kill any doctor who tries to help you.  Forced birth is just what the slave masters did.  Tie you to a job for as long as the boss wants you, sell you down the river without notice (to another firm), healthcare as a condition of your servitude and piss poor healthcare at that, and dump you when you get too old or too broken down to work.  If that's not the slave owners mindset, I'll eat my hat.  The only thing missing is the whip, and the forced prison labor and brutalizing treatment millions endure at the drop of a false accusation or minor drug offense is only a smidgeon from enslavement outright.

      When you lie down with Blue Dogs, you wake up with Teaparty fleas

      by monkeybrainpolitics on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 02:36:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  How many black males are in prison (18+ / 0-)

      And how many are being paid pennies or nothing for their labor? How many are involved in "the war on drugs".

      Hell, yes, it's slavery by another name.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening. "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 03:52:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Disagree strongly...massive fail... (0+ / 0-)

        we can do better than that cheap shot comparing to slavery...

        Obama - Change I still believe in

        by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 06:55:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not such a long shot. (9+ / 0-)

          The maps, particularly the third down, do correspond in part with the very real Slavery by Another Name.

          That was clearly a racial thing that intentionally criminalized being black and often stripped self employed people of property. That crap was in place during my lifetime, even my high school years.

          While those harsh laws were directed at "the other race" the poor white wasn't in a whole lot better shape down in one of those deep red states.

          I remember a textile mill town in which the mill owner made sure the city and county blocked any competitive job creating industry while engaged in rolling layoffs and importing labor by private bus lines existing solely for that purpose from sixty miles away across a state line. Every ordinary worker could expect to be "laid off" for months every few years as a "reminder" of the company's view on unions. Older folks remembered private police and a "camp" some miles outside town where "strikers" were taken after "arrest" so there was not even a whisper of "union" in those mills. That was during the sixties.

          The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

          by pelagicray on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:16:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That has absolutely... (0+ / 0-)

            NOTHING FUCKING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT TROUBLES IN THE UNION MOVEMENT...

            Obama - Change I still believe in

            by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:28:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You seem to have a bit of a problem. (5+ / 0-)

              The diary is about some geographic parallels in a history of disregard for labor and current hot spots of TP/gop misrule.

              An argument can even be made that the differential penalties for crack and white cocaine have some tendrils of that old system in origin. So, no, the FishOutofWater comment to which you responded is not entirely a "massive fail" and your bolded all caps "yelling"

              NOTHING FUCKING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT TROUBLES IN THE UNION MOVEMENT...

              about my reference to the book seems either reading comprehension failure of some childish outburst because someone has a different take.

              The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

              by pelagicray on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:58:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am just so frigging... (0+ / 0-)

                tired of the racial overtones and inuendos that get into diaries and comments at DKos...why can't we make an argument without bringing race into the picture...

                WHY!!!!

                Obama - Change I still believe in

                by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:07:54 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because perhaps there is more "racial" (6+ / 0-)

                  history going on than many such as yourself may realize? Because the attitudes toward labor that could condone enslaving "lesser creatures" that were black so easily extended to "lesser humans" that were the pond scum of 18th and 19th Century British and U.S. society so that their children could be worked to death in mines and factories? The Dickensian exploitation of "poor white trash" took place nationwide. The specific extra exploitation on racial lines took place nationwide with particular and hateful focus in the South and with regard to Asians in the West. Those patterns of exploitation of the "lesser" runs deep in labor history as does politicized effort to smash any attempts those "lesser" made to organize and better their condition.

                  A very notable aspect of my early days in the Deep South of the mid 20th Century was precisely the exploitation of both blacks and the poor whites while keeping the latter fearful and enraged at the former to prevent any logical alliance. You see that in movies such as To Kill A Mockingbird and The Great Debaters. There were people, usually in the professions (my family included) that saw that for what it was, fought against it as did the fictional Atticus Finch, but the commercial culture was overwhelmingly for that system.

                  If you do not know that then you really do not know the history of labor, particularly in the South.

                  The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                  by pelagicray on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:22:01 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Why do you want to deny (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  chase, mamamedusa, pelagicray, kat68

                  our country's history and its impact on the present? Why do you want no discussion pertaining to racism to take place on this site? Why do you refuse to acknowledge that racism has and does still play a role in most every issue we face? Why do you want us to close our eyes to that?

                  What is your problem?

                  •  I have found several fairly common reasons. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    chase, mkor7, StepLeftStepForward

                    First is ignorance.

                    Most of the rest fall into "agenda" reasons, conscious and unconscious.

                    The most interesting and convoluted of those are from African Americans that place the racial experience on such a special plane that it fits no where except where they as individuals have placed it. It is somewhat akin to those that deny anyone except Jews any "holocaust" experience regardless of how effective and brutal another extermination effort may have been.

                    The most common in my experience is from people associated by race, culture or economic position with the past oppressions. We see that a great deal in the "I'm not associated with any racial oppression" even right here on this site when "affirmative action" or such is discussed.

                    The book I reference here was particularly interesting in that it hit a lot of us, Bill Moyers included, who had grown up in the South that it existed right in front of our own eyes unrecognized. In fact, because our little towns, cities and counties used such labor to maintain public property and even manufacture bricks for buildings our own families, often opposed to segregation, did benefit. We, in our ignorance, paid less for our comforts because others were being exploited. It is a sour realization.

                    Yep, in family papers I've found references to slaves and even in wills some of those really nasty implements of slavery. All the "benefits" gained were wiped out in the Civil War and then Great Depression so I got no material benefit from that. That saves me from some extra personal guilt perhaps. Now I know I drove on roads and otherwise benefited from a secondary exploitation. No, I don't feel abject guilt and weeping. I do feel a requirement to defend all reasonable affirmative actions to exterminate all vestiges in current society. I feel it necessary to snarl at racists. I also don't take very well to the "blind eye" and "I've no responsibility" crowd or just those denying any of that applies to something like the topic of this diary or the original comment.

                    The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                    by pelagicray on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:40:13 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That book looks like a good read. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mamamedusa, pelagicray, sow hat

                      One dvogel might benefit from reading. I'm going to put it on my list. Thanks.

                      •  Very interesting and so are reactions. Dvogel here (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mamamedusa, StepLeftStepForward

                        is beginning to sound very familiar. This is the one that even after the joke or assignment or problem is carefully explained still screams "I don't get it!" to the point one just wonders and wanders off shaking the head.

                        There is a connection, indirect, between the  post Southern Strategy GOP, now the TP/gop, and attitudes toward labor most prominent in the South. While unions were opposed everywhere it was there that unions were fought most bitterly and by exactly some of the same people with the attitudes that led to that Slavery by Another Name and before that the true slavery with the oft forgotten degradation of labor of any sort by anyone.

                        It is no damn accident that a paring of national "capital to the max" class anti-labor strain has been coupled with a strong Southern, often race based, strain to give us a TP/gop that is strongly "Southern" in a wide spectrum of attitudes.

                        The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                        by pelagicray on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:43:52 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Why do you and others want to promote... (0+ / 0-)

                    the idea that everything has a racial overtone to it no matter how tenuous the linkage is...???

                    Obama - Change I still believe in

                    by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:42:15 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Gilded Age labor movement (9+ / 0-)

      coined the term "wage slavery" so I think the comparison is well grounded historically.

      wiki check shows the concept of wage slavery runs even deeper than I thought

    •  OK. Forget slavery. It's ancient history. (9+ / 0-)

      Instead, let's make comparisons to Jim Crow laws which were enforced until the 1960s.  And when we do that....  we wind up with virtually the same map.

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

      by bigtimecynic on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 06:14:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  See my comment above and, if you have not, (6+ / 0-)

        be sure to take a close look at Slavery by Another Name.

        Under laws enacted specifically to intimidate blacks, tens of thousands of African Americans were arbitrarily arrested, hit with outrageous fines, and charged for the costs of their own arrests. With no means to pay these ostensible “debts,” prisoners were sold as forced laborers to coal mines, lumber camps, brickyards, railroads, quarries and farm plantations. Thousands of other African Americans were simply seized by southern landowners and compelled into years of involuntary servitude. Government officials leased falsely imprisoned blacks to small-town entrepreneurs, provincial farmers, and dozens of corporations—including U.S. Steel Corp.—looking for cheap and abundant labor. Armies of "free" black men labored without compensation, were repeatedly bought and sold, and were forced through beatings and physical torture to do the bidding of white masters for decades after the official abolition of American slavery.

        The photo gallery is well worth a close look. First up:

        In Alabama and Georgia, where coal and iron ore mining thrived at the end of the 19th century, forced black laborers acquired from county sheriffs and state officials became a backbone of the industry.

        That pattern fits within the diarist's theme.

        The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

        by pelagicray on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:22:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The links are closer than you think (11+ / 0-)

      The effort to keep millions of undocumented workers without a path to legality is a way to steal their labor. There are hundreds of cases of modern slavery reported in the USA every year and many, many more around the world. A class of workers without rights is and was very important to the theft of labor. That is why we have sweatshops and child labor (issues that caused me to begin researching the work of Jack Abramoff back in 1999).

      Comparing struggles of the modern labor movement with slavery is not far from the mark. At root both issues were and are about the theft of labor and a great deal of poverty and economic problems of minorities and some regions of the Country can be directly linked to slavery and system of leased/contracted prison labor that Blackmon describes in his book,  "Slavery by Another Name".

      Cheers

      Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

      by dengre on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:14:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Only one... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        FUCKING DIFFERENCE...CURRENT IMMIGRANTS CAME HERE ILLEGALLY AND WILLINGLY...NOT IN CHAINS!!!

        Obama - Change I still believe in

        by dvogel001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:31:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My apologies (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mamamedusa, kat68, gobears2000

          If you read this as me making an argument that current efforts to steal labor are just like slavery. It is not an argument that I am making or intend to make. Slavery was a horror that stands apart. Although the neo-Slavery system of convict leasing from 1868 through World War II had aspects that were just as bad as the slavery of the Antebellum South.

          The connecting point I was making was about the theft of labor and not that all ways to steal labor are the same. They are not, but they are connected by a desire by some to steal the labor of others.

          If my prose is not clear, please accept my apologies. It would be my error to not make my meaning clear.

          And for current immigrants, it is true that come some willingly, but if you read the reports of modern slavery you'll find that there are others who have actually come in chains or been put in chains as soon as they got here.

          The past is never past.

          Time to clean up DeLay's petri dish! Help CNMI guest workers find justice! Learn more at Unheard No More.

          by dengre on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:50:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent point re immigration (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

        Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth - Abraham Lincoln

        by Gustogirl on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:53:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The comparison is primarily one of (0+ / 0-)

      geography, no?

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