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  •  Helicopters vs. protesters (0+ / 0-)

    To clarify something -- according to reliable sources on the ground in Libya, helicopters and fighter jets have not, in fact, been firing on unarmed protesters despite the reports of many who have claimed that it is true. These accounts are most likely people who have been planted and paid by the regime to make these false statements as a means of frightening the populace. In fact, in many well-documented cases, members of the military have refused to fire on civilians. In some of these cases, fighter pilots and ship captains have left the country with their vessels; in other reports, soldiers have been executed for defying others and their bodies burned. But the point is that the regime does not want to use the military against civilians unless absolutely necessary, because giving orders to fire on civilians is the quickest way to divisions and defections in the military. I have no doubt that morality is not the issue, but in this case the regime's most potent weapon is fear. With every day that passes, more of Libya loses its fear.

    •  I wish you were right but you aren't (1+ / 0-)
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      Greyhound

      Yes two military jet pilots landed in Malta. They said they had been ordered to fire on civilians.

      Do you not think that is true?

      Or do you think that only two pilots were ordered to attack civilians and they both defected?

      You acknowledge that many members of the military have refused to fire on civilians. That implies that some members of the military have been given orders to fire on civilians.

      You seem to think that every Libyan soldier so ordered has defected or bailed out and none have so far obeyed such orders.

      You say

      according to reliable sources on the ground in Libya, helicopters and fighter jets have not, in fact, been firing on unarmed protesters despite the reports of many who have claimed that it is true.

      Please provide links to those sources. In my experience it is very hard to prove a negative even when true. Who could possible know what helicopters and fighter jets haven't been doing? Even the head of the air force could only say that no such orders were given. Even if that were true, even the head of the air force, couldn't know that no rogue elements have violated those commands and fired on civilians anyway.

      Also you seem to argue that Gaddfi regime wouldn't even issue such orders but the deflector you cite say differently.

      People are being murdered in massive numbers in Libya including from the air. This is no time for comfortable self-delusion.

      If you have source that know that none of the reported air strikes on civilians [something Obama does almost everyday ] have taken place then please provide your source.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 01:46:28 PM PST

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    •  There is considerable evidence to the contrary. (0+ / 0-)

      Just this morning there are dozens of pictures and hundreds of first hand accounts of just this happening.

      Libyan forces are split and there are stories of military fighting/killing military that refuse to follow their orders to kill protesters. Some units have refused to leave their bases/docks and some others have joined the protesters, but there are still Libyan and mercenary forces killing civilians.

      Basically, it is civil war and all the chaos that comes with that, but Gadhafi is losing even as Libyans are losing their lives.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

      by Greyhound on Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 12:00:59 PM PST

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