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View Diary: How to treat conservative delusion? (308 comments)

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  •  Maybe you should seriously (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    manoffire, means are the ends

    consider moving to a different state.

     

    ~a little change goes a long way~

    by missliberties on Wed Mar 02, 2011 at 08:58:22 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Um, there isn't anywhere to go (13+ / 0-)

      that's safe from teh crazy.

      The only way to band together, stand and fight.

      "If we work in unity, we will achieve our goal." ~ Aung San Suu Kyi

      by jan4insight on Wed Mar 02, 2011 at 09:38:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But in Blue States in general and certain cities (7+ / 0-)

        in particular (NYC, Seattle, Chicago, the Bay Area, etc) we are in the majority. Feeling outnumbered is a crappy feeling. My hometown is beautiful but conservative. Most of us liberals left as soon as we could.  And you couldn't pay us to return.

        It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... - C Dickens.

        by grover on Wed Mar 02, 2011 at 10:33:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agree. That's why I'm in SF. I was too (10+ / 0-)

          tired to live my life and fight for feminism and liberal values in nearly every human encounter outside my close friends/family.

          My strategy for survival in the South: live and work near a large University. At that time, 25 years ago, it provided an intellectual, political and shared-values atmosphere that was congenial. Just my experience.

          Life is a school, Love is the lesson.

          by means are the ends on Wed Mar 02, 2011 at 10:57:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes but SFO is too much the other way (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buddabelly, RadicalRoadRat

            I've observed some surprising laws being enacted by the SFO city council that are frankly nanny state and invasive of personal choice.  For example, a ban on "happy meals" e.g. meals with kid toys included. They may have a desired outcome in mind but the fact remains, the city has just made a universal decision on how one is to raise their children or one's own food choices.  

            So, while I am a very left leaning person, there can be too much of a good thing so to speak.

            --Mr. President, you have to earn my vote every day. Not take it for granted. --

            by chipoliwog on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:35:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  or maybe... (6+ / 0-)

              ...they made a decision to help the planet from being polluted by cheap plastic crap produced by slave labor while enticing a child to ask their parents to buy "food" not for its nutritive value but for the extra "crap" that comes with that "crap meal". You can still buy the "crap meal" if you want though. Perhaps you need to understand public policy better. Those crap meals are good at producing premature patients that drive medical costs up for everybody. Heart attack victims end in emergency rooms and emergency rooms can not deny emergency treatment by law. That emergency room care drives health care costs up tremendously for everybody. So if we don't want a "nanny" state on one end then it has to be eliminated on the other and that is the brutal truth.

              "Capitalism has defeated communism. It is now well on its way to defeating democracy."
- David Korten

              by basquebob on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 05:53:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  yes point taken but... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                I am a Patriot, MRA NY

                the hallmark of our democracy is freedom of choice. You can advocate for these choices but we should be very very careful about legislating them.

                I think SFO has gone too far.

                --Mr. President, you have to earn my vote every day. Not take it for granted. --

                by chipoliwog on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 07:03:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't know... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  grover, means are the ends

                  ...that "freedom of choice" is the "hallmark" of our democracy. Don't take me wrong, I am all for freedom of choice. But as much as some else wants their freedom of choice so do I  want my freedoms of choice and sometimes those freedoms of choice collide frontally; hence, policies are needed. For example, I'd like my freedom from beaches full of plastic crap. What makes their freedom to pollute my world more important than my freedom to go to a clean beach or breath clean air? Where someone's freedom don't affect other person's freedom or welfare I am all for them. Where someone's freedoms start encroaching on other people's freedoms or welfare, they are not freedoms any more but impositions.

                  "Capitalism has defeated communism. It is now well on its way to defeating democracy."
- David Korten

                  by basquebob on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 11:59:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Freedom from litter et al (0+ / 0-)

                    Is enforced by fining people for littering not prohibiting them from possessing things that COULD become litter.

                    Clean air is an appropriate public policy issue. But how you arrive at it is again a matter for delicacy.  You don't ban cars simply because you want clean air.  You can mandate clean air standards, you can provide incentives for fewer Vehicle Miles Travelled. You can create land use policies that encourage more density and complete and functional neighborhoods e.g. food and essentials within walking distance. You can foster mass transit.  You can use those enticements to get people out of their cars naturally rather than a blunt club.

                    A carrot is much better than a stick.  A warm sun is much better than a cold bitter wind.  

                    Capice?

                    --Mr. President, you have to earn my vote every day. Not take it for granted. --

                    by chipoliwog on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 12:47:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      means are the ends

                      ...when the enticement doesn't work and you create a health disaster like diabetes in this country, what do you do? You know we are all paying for that when most of it is perfectly preventable, just if people would use a fraction of their intelligence. You don't want me to pay at the other end? Then you are right. You want me to help at the other end, which I'll gladly do, then I have a right to set policy.

                      Capice?

                      "Capitalism has defeated communism. It is now well on its way to defeating democracy."
- David Korten

                      by basquebob on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 05:53:24 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Again, logic isn't required :-) (0+ / 0-)

                        People make choices. Often not the best choices. If everyone made the "correct" choices based on logic and empirical evidence, then it would be a rather mundane world for there would be no challenges.  

                        The fact that we don't prohibit smoking all together even though the detailed health outcomes are well known is a testament to that.  We have made reasonable public policy to prohibit smoking in public places, but we do not criminalize it. I imagine if they could get away with it, the politburo in SFO would do just that.  I use the term politburo deliberately to illustrate the extreme of the nanny state.  

                        Besides, some pointy eared brother from another planet once said...

                        "Logic is a little bird tweeting in meadow; logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which ... smell bad..." Lt. Cmdr. Spock

                        --Mr. President, you have to earn my vote every day. Not take it for granted. --

                        by chipoliwog on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 10:44:05 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And who is talking about... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          means are the ends

                          ...logic. Go back and read it again. It is about policy. We are talking about 2 to 8 year old kids. We are talking about public health and the cost to society at large. Policy, capice?

                          If you eating 20 big macs a day would not affect the cost of my insurance policy, go eat them. But since it does because that is the way our system works then I want to have a say about it too. You call it nanny state, I call it protecting my investment. If hospitals and emergency rooms where not obligated to treat you if you did not have insurance or the means to pay for it and your actions did not have any effect on me, then your nanny state argument would hold water. But that is not how our current system works and hence the need for public policy. I know that this might sound too logical to you but it has to do with more than logic. I don't want to pay for other people being irresponsible or ignorant. Using your argument, I don't want the "nanny" state telling me that I have to pay for other peoples stupidity without a say so. If I have to pay for it then I want to hedge that obligation. One way to do it is setting policy.

                          And politburo in SFO? Really? Have a nice day.

                          "Capitalism has defeated communism. It is now well on its way to defeating democracy."
- David Korten

                          by basquebob on Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 06:02:08 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  you're making a classic republican blunder (0+ / 0-)

                            Insurance and taxes are pools of risk or resources.  The insurance company will make reasonable choices about risk but will not edict specific behavior to eliminate risk.  Likewise the government will do the same about it's resources.

                            The thing to remember, it's no longer YOUR money.  It is our money. It is also no longer the smoker's money, or the Big Mac eating obese person's money or the granola eating vegan's money.

                            --Mr. President, you have to earn my vote every day. Not take it for granted. --

                            by chipoliwog on Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 09:00:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am making a classic republican blunder? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            means are the ends

                            Perhaps you are misreading what I am saying. Actually you are making leaps in logic. I thought you were saying I was being too logical where logic doesn't work and you feel the need to explain to me how risk pools work. Do you understand that risks can be managed through policy? Perhaps not. But you feel compelled to tell me that I am making a republican blunder. What next? I thought changing the subject was the republican specialty? You are good at changing the subject. Good bye.

                            "Capitalism has defeated communism. It is now well on its way to defeating democracy."
- David Korten

                            by basquebob on Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 06:15:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  My understanding is that you can get the (3+ / 0-)

                toys too. But only with meals that have fruits and vegetables. So parents have to be parents. They have to choose: crappy meals for their kids or vaguely healthier meals with toys. How about, we rail about the fact that McDonalds has been a nanny corporation for years, in that they have been choosing what to feed and how to entertain America's children (especially poor children). Parents have to finally make a choice.

                Btw, I've stopped by plenty of my neighbors' yard sales. Happy Meal toys are always tossed in a box together and the box is selling for maybe 50 cents. They have no value after the promotion period (with few exceptions).  Thrift stores won't take them. They can't be recycled. Some have been recalled for lead content. Parents dont save them for Susie and Timmy to give to their kIds to play with.  The vast majority end up in landfill.

                Why CAN'T a community say it doesn't want this stuff to begin with, especially given the links between the toys and childhood obesity?  It's bad for a community's kids and it's bad for the environment.

                Isn't this exactly the sort of courage we want from our elected officials? The willingness to say "no" to corporations when their interests collide with ours? I wish my city followed San Francisco's lead...

                It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... - C Dickens.

                by grover on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 12:36:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  "happy meal" regulation might be okay (0+ / 0-)

              What chance does a child stand against McDonald's psychologically engineered, highly advanced marketing techniques?  More generally, many liberal measures run into the maw of the Willie Brown/Gavin Newsom/Rose Pak corporate lapdog beast.

              But, there are some other things that are troublesome.  One was a ballot measure that many SF Dem leading lights supported to require landlords to forgive rent for several months for anyone poor who was laid off in the recession.  This would've had all kinds of awful effects.  If they really wanted to help, they should've had the fortitude to propose a subsidy and a tax to fund it.

              Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

              by Simplify on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:39:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, that's true (0+ / 0-)

          There are no people in my life here in Boston with whom I could have that kind of argument.  

          My former boss, a born-again Christian and a good guy whom I respected,  once make a comment about global warming.  But I did not choose to follow up on it.

          That's about it.

    •  I disagree... (0+ / 0-)

      If everyone did that, the Left would simply be confined to a series of smaller and smaller enclaves...

      As crazy as the Right is these days, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted that!

    •  Yes, but the liberal cities are too crowded! n/t (0+ / 0-)

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