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View Diary: The Public: Yes to union givebacks, no to the end of collective bargaining (99 comments)

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  •  now, you can argue (11+ / 0-)

    that any union giveback is a loss, but in this financial and political environment, I think it's unavoidable. Everyone is going to sacrifice, everyone feels pain. Negotiate where the line is drawn.

    But ending collective bargaining? Bad idea.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:25:48 PM PST

    •  Your previous post on Dannel Malloy (5+ / 0-)

      was right on target.  There's a right way to do this, one that is both fiscally sound and socially responsible, sharing the pain in equal measure but maintaining the governing capacity of the state until better times come along.

      Sometimes I wonder if the GOP intention is not to sabotage the economy in order to give themselves a leg up in the 2012 elections.  The only reason they won last year was because of the hideous state of the economy, and the recovery at the moment looks like it will be gathering real steam just in time for Obama's reelection.

      Republican budget cutting at the state and federal level just might plunge the economy back into recession, and I can't imagine they'd be terribly upset by that possibility.

      Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
      ¡Boycott Arizona!

      by litho on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:30:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree. (5+ / 0-)

      Same thing with state teachers' unions. Let's negotiate givebacks. Pay into pensions, pay into healthcare. But do NOT NOT NOT cut collective bargaining rights. That will be the death knell of unions in this country, if the other states considering Walker-esque moves follow suit, as the only major unions left are public sector unions.

      I tend to get political.

      by kalich on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:32:28 PM PST

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      •  The ras poll has to give the GOP pause for thought (0+ / 0-)

        But it won't. Walker is running out of time and is only going to push this further.

         And as he ventures further out on to the limb he may want to look back and see where that sawing sound is coming from.

         My bet is that it will be a GOP damage control team doing the cutting.

         Setting up dsks outside to meet with constituants, as dem Reps did today, is horrible optics for the GOP shutdown efforts.

        it tastes like burning...

        by eastvan on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:11:06 PM PST

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    •  I will only agree to this when I see the (12+ / 0-)

      rich sacrificing.

      Which we won't.

      So the "everyone is going to sacrifice" is bullshit.

      "I'm not scared of anyone or anything, Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?" Jack Hawksmoor

      by skyounkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:41:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  depends where you live (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nonnie9999

        first of all, the American public agrees with you (NBC/WSJ poll says millionaire's tax most popular budget balancer).

        second of all, here in CT the lead local news story tonight was Malloy's tax on luxury cars.

        So, I counter your call of bullshit and say that not all of America is Wisconsin.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:50:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah when all the Hedge Fund Managers that live (6+ / 0-)

          in Connecticut actually start paying more than 15% as capitol gains taxes for their income... you will have a point.

          CT Gov +1

          Only 49 States to go.

          So, I counter "your counter" call of bullshit and say that not all of America is Connecticut.

          This is a crisis I knew had to come, Destroying the balance I'd kept. Doubting, unsettling and turning around, Wondering what will come next.
          --Ian Curtis

          by jethrock on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:04:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  too bad it isn;'t (0+ / 0-)

            but hey, you gonna rail at the sun rising tomorrow every day? it's still gonna rise.

            But there's CA (a fifth of the country), IL, HI and a handful of others (not just CT). of course, they have D governors.

            The brave ones are governors such as Jerry Brown in California, Dan Malloy in Connecticut, Pat Quinn in Illinois, Mark Dayton in Minnesota and Neil Abercrombie in Hawaii. They are declaring that you have to cut programs, even when your own side likes them, and raise taxes, which nobody likes much at all. Rhode Island's Lincoln Chafee has warned of possible tax increases too.

            Indeed, to the extent that Quinn received any national press coverage, he got pilloried in conservative outlets in January when he signed tax hikes that included a temporary increase in Illinois' individual income tax rate from 3 percent to 5 percent.

            Despite all the commotion around whether the federal government will shut down, the clamor in the states may be even more important than what's happening in Washington, which is missing in action on the moment's most vital fiscal question.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:13:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow You're starting to sound more like a Neolib (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              skyounkin

              everyday.

              but hey, you gonna rail at the sun rising tomorrow every day? it's still gonna rise.

              That almost sounds like "pull yourself up from your bootstraps"

              Unfortunately too many folks can't. And for many folks tomorrow looks darker than today.

              I imagine that the teachers who are facing a pink slip or significant pay cut don't see a bright and sunny tomorrow.

              This is a crisis I knew had to come, Destroying the balance I'd kept. Doubting, unsettling and turning around, Wondering what will come next.
              --Ian Curtis

              by jethrock on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:29:09 PM PST

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              •  I think it sucks (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                missliberties

                but then again, you seem to falsely accuse me of advocating it or liking it. That's something you've made up in your head. That's your problem, not mine.

                Acknowledging reality is what reality-based communities do.  The current situation is not good.   A sucky economy and a loss in an election will do that. OTOH, budgets will have to be balanced. I advocate doing it without pink slips, but I don't make the rules

                Or do you want to pretend none of that is true? What use is that?

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:56:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Writing that "everyone has to sacrifice" is not (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  skyounkin

                  reality based.

                  If collective bargaining is kept intact but the rest of Walkers agenda in his his bill is enacted... we still lose.

                  The fact is everyone is not sacrificing. I live in New York. I used to work on Wall Street as an Assets Manager. I know some of the hedge fund mangers I referred to earlier.

                  Hell, one of them is a friend and flying me and my girlfriend out to Coachella next month. (We work in the biz so we're providing the VIP tickets and backstage passes.)

                  So many of the guys can't go to Flashdancers as much as they used to. Maybe they have to think twice before buying that third Rolex.

                  But please... don't pretend that you towing the Democratic line recently is "reality based"

                  It's totally fucking transparent... and you have bought into much of the same false meme that many in our party have.

                  Come back to me when the federal budget decreases defense contracting and invests in the people here.

                  I guarantee you whatever "compromise" Dems agree to on the Federal Budget will be us and working class folks making sacrifices while the upper echelon get "incentives"

                  Check yourself dude. I welcome your return to reality but you've drifted.

                  This is a crisis I knew had to come, Destroying the balance I'd kept. Doubting, unsettling and turning around, Wondering what will come next.
                  --Ian Curtis

                  by jethrock on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 05:21:20 PM PST

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            •  Please explain to me how the rich (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hyperstation, justmy2, wsexson, jethrock

              making sacrifices equals to the middle class making sacrfices.

              It doesn't.

              The middle class has been sacrificing for years now and we are just getting around now to asking the rich to sacrifice.  And honestly I am not holding my breath with the way dems "negotiate".

              "I'm not scared of anyone or anything, Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?" Jack Hawksmoor

              by skyounkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:35:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  fair point (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                skyounkin

                after all, the Bush tax cuts on the rich went through... and that sucked. State level is different, and different in each state.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:57:37 PM PST

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            •  Funny... (4+ / 0-)

              at last night's talk I attended, Kleiman remarked that we shouldn't have recycled Jerry Brown, we should've composted him!  :-P

              This was in the context of the massive higher education cuts Brown is proposing, and many of us fear those cuts will never be restored.  :-\

              The problem with raising taxes in California is that fucking 2/3s rule that prevents even the voters from having a say.  You need 2/3 of the legislature just to PUT it on the ballot for the people to vote on it in the first place!!

              How fucked up is our state's laws?  There was a local measure in Santa Barbara (IIRC) that was going to raise a certain kind of tax by a few cents, in order to keep the public library open or something.  65% of the people voted in favor of the additional tax...

              ...which meant the measure FAILED, because it didn't get over 66.6% of the vote.

              Argh.

        •  Show me the state in America (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jethrock

          where teachers are overpaid or have benefits that are too high?

          This is unrelated to evaluation and layoff parameters.  Purely fiscally.  Where is this the case?

          If you can't provide this data, your statement that all of America is not WI doesn't ring true.

          As a matter of fact, one could argue that it directly contradicts the idea of solidarity (not that you have to prescribe to it, but I am simply pointing it out).

          "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

          by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:20:42 PM PST

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          •  where have I said that (0+ / 0-)

            teachers are overpaid? Where have I said that their benefits are too high? But concessions are going to be made everywhere regardless because of the economy. They already have on the private sector side and and already have have been made on the public sector side. They should be reasonable and negotiated in good faith. They should be done with collective bargaining.

            Take WI. The fight is not about givebacks, because the unions agreed with the proposals on the table.  I agree with Greg Sargent:

            One of the most important but least appreciated aspects of this standoff has been that efforts to scapegoat public employees in order to divide working Americans against each other seem to be failing, at least on the core question of whether public unions have a right to exist. We've already seen that all income groups except higher-end ones have consistently supported public employees in poll after poll. And now the public has strongly endorsed the idea that public unions are entitled to the same bargaining rights as private ones.
            To me, the fundamental question is about the union's right to exist. Given the preservation of bargaining rights, it's up to both parties to bargain. That, of course, is what's missing in WI. Both parties.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:37:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My phone at my response which was much longer (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wsexson

              but I will leave it at this.  Your primary issue is unions should exist.  But primary issue is workers should be able to live.    They shouldn't be forced to make decisions like pay your rent or food.  

              Your position is driven by what you left out.  First responders are not sacrificing anything.  Corporations are not sacrificing anything.  Wealthy WI residents are not sacrificing anything. Tax increases are apparently not a remote option.

              So when you say everyone has to sacrifice, but fail to mention who isn't, one has to assume you thing the people sacrificing are the most capable.  Your silence on the other options is what speaks volumes to me.

              To win the future, we have to invest in it.  We need to be creating more incentives for people to become teachers, not less.  We need to put kids first, not the corporations.  Why we don't throw out bad teachers and pay the good one more is beyond me.  Instead, we bail out the people who created a financial meltdown and then pretend the only option is to cut workers pay and benefits.

              I would simply ask why you choose to limit discussion of the validity of the cuts you describe as necessity.  I understand why some like the President as a New Democrat would support something like this, I struggle with why liberals/progressives do.

              "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

              by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 05:30:17 PM PST

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      •  totally...I am not sure why DemFromCT (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jethrock

        is promoting this meme...

        "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

        by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:17:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I actually had... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skyounkin, schnecke21, jethrock

        an argument with a right-winger, and I asked what the rich have had to sacrifice.

        His answer?  Their Bush tax cuts weren't permanently extended.  He viewed that as a "loss" for the wealthy that they have to endure.

        :-|

        Yes, that's how these people think.  They are dumb.  And they're so dumb, they don't even know they're dumb.

    •  "Everyone is going to sacrifice" Really? (7+ / 0-)

      Even those in the upper income brackets and mega-corporations?

      Ha! That's a laugh.

      This is a crisis I knew had to come, Destroying the balance I'd kept. Doubting, unsettling and turning around, Wondering what will come next.
      --Ian Curtis

      by jethrock on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:52:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  there's plenty of suggestions in CT (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nonnie9999

        to tax the rich more. The current plan could be better as it hits middle income folks nm ore than I like. But increased taxes for everyone is in the proposal.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:02:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then you should be writing posts about CT (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jethrock

          not WI, if you are basing your assumption on your personal experience.

          "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

          by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:21:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  see earlier FP about CT (0+ / 0-)

            see EJ Dionne about CT, HI, MN, CA and IL.

            See concept of fighting for the union's right to exist and the right of collective bargaining. That's a universal.

            You want to write it different, the diaries are over there -->

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:40:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  OTOH (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        missliberties, JanL

        in CT there's also an additional new earned inbcome credit for the poor, which is driving conservatives nuts.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:18:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  We gotta tax corporations first (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wsexson, blueoasis, nonnie9999, plf515, Matt Z

      We can't just take this sitting down. People need to fight back. Private sector workers especially. And it's high time the government got around to creating some jobs.

      Support the Farmworkers Struggle. February 27 in Boston and March 4th and 5th in Tampa. See you there http://www.ciw-online.org/dotherightthing/index.html

      by Johnnythebandit on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 03:56:52 PM PST

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    •  No, everyone doesn't feel pain (10+ / 0-)

      That's just not true.

      Billionaires are feeling no pain.  Even the people with $100 million are feeling no pain.

      And there are thousands of such people.  Heck, you need to be worth $1 billion to get on the Forbes 400.

    •  It is worth remembering (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DemFromCT

      that one of FDR's first acts was to freeze the pay of government workers and eleminate veteran's benefits.

      The point isn't that Walker is right, but that in tough times it becomes hard to defend the pay of public workers (even though a Keynsian would argue that the should be defended precisely because times are tough).

      Walker et al are betting that in a post Citizens United world the political loss is worth reducing the power of the unions to balance political spending against the rich.  They may yet prove right, which is why people are right to scream like hell.

      The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

      by fladem on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:13:18 PM PST

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      •  are you going on about Obama being from kenya? (0+ / 0-)

        Oops, never mind.

        - Emily Litella

        yeah, this is a battle (finally) worth having, and which will engage a large number of people.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:20:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My dyslexia (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DemFromCT

          has provided unintended amusement for many of those who have been subjected to my writing.  This has included, alas, two judges who have had fun at my expense.....

          The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

          by fladem on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 05:36:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well, we don't live in the same Country where (0+ / 0-)

        people used to be able to go out and literally "stake their claim"

        My grandparents grew up on Homesteads and lived off the land. They were poor. But they were able to live off the land. Many places in this country now you can't even farm if you're not using Monsanto seeds.

        The income disparity is much worse than it was then... and the corporate tax rate was massive compared to today.

        So yes... some comparisons can be made to those times, but not without taking into account the very real differences.

        This is a crisis I knew had to come, Destroying the balance I'd kept. Doubting, unsettling and turning around, Wondering what will come next.
        --Ian Curtis

        by jethrock on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:23:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Commented before I saw this.... (0+ / 0-)

      Why did you decide to put this in a comment, something that won't be seen on the front page?  It leads one to believe that their is something you, or the site editors don't want thought leaders to see.

      Or, is it simply that this is your opinion, and you didn't want to insert your opinion into the story?

      "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

      by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:16:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  nonsense (0+ / 0-)
        It leads one to believe that their is something you, or the site editors don't want thought leaders to see.
        Didn't fit with the story, but the thought occurred to me as I posted it and after i wrote it.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:48:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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