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View Diary: The Public: Yes to union givebacks, no to the end of collective bargaining (99 comments)

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  •  Show me the state in America (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jethrock

    where teachers are overpaid or have benefits that are too high?

    This is unrelated to evaluation and layoff parameters.  Purely fiscally.  Where is this the case?

    If you can't provide this data, your statement that all of America is not WI doesn't ring true.

    As a matter of fact, one could argue that it directly contradicts the idea of solidarity (not that you have to prescribe to it, but I am simply pointing it out).

    "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

    by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:20:42 PM PST

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    •  where have I said that (0+ / 0-)

      teachers are overpaid? Where have I said that their benefits are too high? But concessions are going to be made everywhere regardless because of the economy. They already have on the private sector side and and already have have been made on the public sector side. They should be reasonable and negotiated in good faith. They should be done with collective bargaining.

      Take WI. The fight is not about givebacks, because the unions agreed with the proposals on the table.  I agree with Greg Sargent:

      One of the most important but least appreciated aspects of this standoff has been that efforts to scapegoat public employees in order to divide working Americans against each other seem to be failing, at least on the core question of whether public unions have a right to exist. We've already seen that all income groups except higher-end ones have consistently supported public employees in poll after poll. And now the public has strongly endorsed the idea that public unions are entitled to the same bargaining rights as private ones.
      To me, the fundamental question is about the union's right to exist. Given the preservation of bargaining rights, it's up to both parties to bargain. That, of course, is what's missing in WI. Both parties.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 04:37:10 PM PST

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      •  My phone at my response which was much longer (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wsexson

        but I will leave it at this.  Your primary issue is unions should exist.  But primary issue is workers should be able to live.    They shouldn't be forced to make decisions like pay your rent or food.  

        Your position is driven by what you left out.  First responders are not sacrificing anything.  Corporations are not sacrificing anything.  Wealthy WI residents are not sacrificing anything. Tax increases are apparently not a remote option.

        So when you say everyone has to sacrifice, but fail to mention who isn't, one has to assume you thing the people sacrificing are the most capable.  Your silence on the other options is what speaks volumes to me.

        To win the future, we have to invest in it.  We need to be creating more incentives for people to become teachers, not less.  We need to put kids first, not the corporations.  Why we don't throw out bad teachers and pay the good one more is beyond me.  Instead, we bail out the people who created a financial meltdown and then pretend the only option is to cut workers pay and benefits.

        I would simply ask why you choose to limit discussion of the validity of the cuts you describe as necessity.  I understand why some like the President as a New Democrat would support something like this, I struggle with why liberals/progressives do.

        "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

        by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 05:30:17 PM PST

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        •  at = ate in subject line (0+ / 0-)

          "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

          by justmy2 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 07:28:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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