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View Diary: Hunting Galileo: The Right's War on Science (125 comments)

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  •  See if you can say what it is (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, Shockwave, Margd, wargolem

    that makes it what it is and not something else.

    For example, lets allow that as an agnostic your concept of religion has evolved beyond superstition and myth, you don't want your concept of a supreme being to be personified or given a gender.

    What I think Republicans are trying to do is get rid of all the things that make government work because its government that insists of the separation of church and state and refuses to subscribe to their choice of superstition and myth.

    They want a theocracy which reinforces and supports their world view and burns all the heretical scientists that go around refuting their ideas.

    To that end they want to do away with education because well educated people are more likely to choose science over intelligent design as a world view and to support the separation of church and state, and to have the decision making process assigned  to government rather believers patriarchs and men of faith

    This diary is excellent in its itemization of the problem but it doesn't really address the solution.

    As an agnostic you don't picture a seated deity crowned and  on a throne floating among the clouds or on top of a mountain nor do you worship the sons of this god or the angels or various cherubim what have you.

    Agnostics generally want to be believers in something but can't subscribe to any dogma not even that of science. They do however seem open to education.

    You want a natural philosophy that explains creation in some logical scientific manner, but not necessarily in so simplistic a manner as the balance between paired opposites of air earth, fire, and water found in Genesis.

    Lets go further and allow you aren't locked into natural philosophies which separate the reality of this world from an afterlife, reincarnation, battles between the forces of light and darkness, good and evil, right and wrong.

    You are looking for a proposition that bears a good conformance to reality, something that says what is and that's the way it is, not the way it should be but the way it is.

    Suppose that we define your Supreme Being in the usual way as infinite and eternal and say that it is and was and will be what it is unchanging and absolute.

    Its possible to think of Being as the sum of all Becoming
    and becoming as the process of creation so that in that sense your Supreme Being is a creator.

    If we say that then we have to allow that it may be real but it doesn't exist because everything which exists is constantly changing if simply by growing older.

    About the only way I can see a solution to this is to begin to teach children about religion in secular schools that strip away the superstition and myth the requirement to take things on faith and to believe and leave the attitudes and values, norms, mores, rules, laws, all the good pagan consensus as to what is right and proper

    Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

    by rktect on Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 05:04:05 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Agnostics Question God's Ways! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wargolem

      My Favorite Uncle was one. He's the guy who told me about Marx!
      A Nicer Person You'd Never Meet, Than My Uncle Timmy Murphy! WWII Vet

      Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga Be The Change You Want To See In The World! Ghandi

      by rebel ga on Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 11:17:40 AM PDT

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    •  Ok i will try. (0+ / 0-)
      For example, lets allow that as an agnostic your concept of religion has evolved beyond superstition and myth, you don't want your concept of a supreme being to be personified or given a gender.

      What I think Republicans are trying to do is get rid of all the things that make government work because its government that insists of the separation of church and state and refuses to subscribe to their choice of superstition and myth.

      They want a theocracy which reinforces and supports their world view and burns all the heretical scientists that go around refuting their ideas.

      To that end they want to do away with education because well educated people are more likely to choose science over intelligent design as a world view and to support the separation of church and state, and to have the decision making process assigned  to government rather believers patriarchs and men of faith

      This diary is excellent in its itemization of the problem but it doesn't really address the solution.

      I agree with everything you said. I too agree that their agenda is quite sinister and we should push back against it with better education. I also agree that this was a great diary. Do not mistake my first comment as something intending to bash the diarist.  I was simply taking issue with his assertion that anyone who does not subscribe to every letter of the theory of evolution is backwards sleazy and dumb.  As an agnostic I find that horribly wrong to be grouped in with the snake handlers.   You see I was raised protestant. I "evolved". I just recently have admitted to my wife and family my views.  Recently as in over the last 8 years of marriage--hey evolution takes time :)  I see no reason why someone cannot believe in evolution and a higher power. I find the two to be quite agreeable in my own personal life. I also find both feverish cultish church people as obnoxious as hardcore crusading atheists. Both require you to believe every letter of every word in their opinion of how the world started and both come across as holier than thou.

      As an agnostic you don't picture a seated deity crowned and  on a throne floating among the clouds or on top of a mountain nor do you worship the sons of this god or the angels or various cherubim what have you.

      Agnostics generally want to be believers in something but can't subscribe to any dogma not even that of science. They do however seem open to education.

      I like to think that I agree with Einstein on the subject of a God. I will take him over Dawkins any day of the week.  Humble to the end and a true visionary that wanted to change the world for the better. I would like to think all of us searching for our origins and our answers would do well to read up on him.

      Albert Einstein and Religion

      (The following quotes are taken from The Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press unless otherwise noted)

      "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

      (The following is from Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer, Princeton University Press)
      "I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

      (The following is from The Quotable Einstein)
      "Thus I came...to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience...an attitude which has never left me."

      "I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."

      "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

      "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature."

      "The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that , compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of  human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

      ". . . In spite of all this, I don't let a single opportunity pass unheeded, nor have I lost my sense of  humor. When God created the ass he gave him a thick skin." Einstein: The Life and Times by Ronald W. Clark, Avon Books.

      "Where dull-witted clansmen of our tribe were praying aloud, their faces turned to the wall, their bodies swaying to and fro. A pathetic sight of men with a past but without a future." (Regarding his visit to the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, February 3, 1923)

      "Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000 years of suffering and deserve all that will come to us."

      "I appeal to all men and women, whether they be eminent or humble, to declare that they will refuse to give any further assistance to war or the preparation of war."

      "It is my belief that the problem of bringing peace to the world on a supranational basis will be solved only by employing Gandhi's method on a larger scale."

        So you see I constantly try to learn. I want to be a good member of society and I want mankind to evolve past this current state of constant warfare and greed we currently exist in. I want so much for our species to invest in trying to explore the universe and develop technology to repair the damage we have caused to this planet and hopefully to make other planets livable. This is my dream and my goal in life. To educate my children to this dream of mine and hopefully they too will follow in my footsteps and try to make the world a better place.

      I am the flail of God. Had you not commited great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you. - Ghengis Khan.

      by wargolem on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 09:45:37 PM PDT

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