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View Diary: Gadaffi using Human Shields to ward off decapitation attack (78 comments)

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  •  I'm Just Going to Ask the HARD QUESTION (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell

    If we have eyes on target and can take him out at the cost of killing the journalists... should it be done?

    No doubt the question alone will enrage some, but by any objective standard it's a valid one. Let's start with the fact that no matter what, people are going to die (and have been dying). Even if the UN does nothing at all people will continue to die. With UN action people are going to die.

    Whether or not people are going to die isn't even a question. The only real unknown, is the cold question of - how many? Would killing him along with is shields save more lives in the end?

    Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the making of this post, but millions of electrons may have been severely inconvenienced.

    by USArmyParatrooper on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 06:10:57 PM PDT

    •  The answer is Yes (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      USArmyParatrooper, wishingwell

      In the current circumstances, if we can get him we should not hesitate.  He has made it clear he intends to go out in a bloodbath and take as many people as he can with him.

      This is not a hard and fast rule.  In most hostage situations, you wait the criminal out and try and talk him/her down.  

      But with a maniac who is conducting a killing spree, it is a sad but necessary step to prevent even more deaths.  

      No one ever wants to be placed in the position of making this kind of decision.  But someone has to make the call - and live with it.

      You don't want a situation where Gaddafi is sitting around surrounded by human shields while he gives his orders to liquidate people.

      Remember, this is a guy who has no problems blowing civilian airliners out of the sky and killing 1,200 prison inmates in a day.

      You give in to his little game and pretty soon he will have women and children strapped to the tops of his tanks.

      "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

      by FDRDemocrat on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 06:35:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The answer is no... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence
      If we have eyes on target and can take him out at the cost of killing the journalists... should it be done?

      My answer is no. We should not take him out. Period. What we should do instead, and I suspect that is the plan, is to weaken his power sourcers. He is but one man. Without his military and the devotees he has no power. Taking out of his air force and the army would 'cause defections. You may use the analogy of 'defanging him,' instead of killing him to describe this approach. Without his fangs, he won't be able to bite anyone. Then it should be left to the people of Libya to bring him to justice.

      We really aren't in this to kill Gaddafi. It would not be beneficial to us if we did. Besides, this is not Iraq and Obama is no George Bush. We want to take away Gaddafi's guns however so that his people can properly deal with him. That's it. Otherwise, he is going to slaughter every last one of them.

      "Corruptio Optima Pessimi" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

      by zenox on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 08:38:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The rebels were voting with guns (0+ / 0-)

        before this UN thing.

        What makes Gaddafi' worse than the rebels?

        •  Gaddafi drew first blood (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zenox

          As much as I hate to quote a Rambo movie.

          Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the making of this post, but millions of electrons may have been severely inconvenienced.

          by USArmyParatrooper on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 08:50:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That claim is always made by both sides (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cliss

            in every war.

            •  Uhh.... no (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zenox, Pozzo

              First of all I'm going by news reports, not anything that Gadaffi said (which is 99% nonsensical)

              The Japanese claim we attacked them first?

              Did Saddam claim Kuwait attack Iraq first?

              Did the US claim Saddam attacked us first?

              Shall I go on?

              Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the making of this post, but millions of electrons may have been severely inconvenienced.

              by USArmyParatrooper on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 11:13:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Today's wars are different in the sense... (0+ / 0-)

              ...that we get fresh info via internet. There are videos and live streaming to show the world who started the fire first.

              In this case, Gadhafi did. Not just by saying but by proof.

              "Corruptio Optima Pessimi" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

              by zenox on Sun Mar 20, 2011 at 12:44:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  That's hogwash. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          USArmyParatrooper, zenox, Pozzo

          The "rebels" were unarmed Libyan civilians that were demonstrating, just like in Tunisia and Egypt.  Then Gaddafi's mercenaries started mowing them down.  At that point they started using any weapon that they could get their hands on to defend themselves.

          "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

          by Lawrence on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 10:46:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They look like guns to me. (0+ / 0-)

            •  You really need to inform yourself. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sky Net, zenox, Pozzo

              Because the stuff you are posting is incredibly insulting both to Libyans and to those of us who have friends and acquaintances from and in Libya.

              Even insinuating that the anti-regime forces are in the remotest similar to a brutal dictator of over 40 years is gutter dreck.

              Here's a timeling of events in Libya, since you don't seem to be aware of it:

                 17 February: Libyan protesters start demonstrating. Security forces respond with snipers and live fire.

                  18 February: 35 protesters are reportedly shot by Libyan security forces and taken to hospital after attempting to march on one of leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's homes.

                  22 February: Gaddafi vows to fight to his "last drop of blood" and on television calls for his supporters to "fill the streets" and "attack (the protesters) in their lairs".

                  23 February: British government begins its delayed evacuation of Libya. A day later, the EU and Russia condemn governments in north Africa and the Middle East for using force to break up peaceful demonstrations. Gaddafi rolls out his now-familiar tactic of blaming al-Qaida for the uprisings.

                  4 March: Interpol issues an "orange notice" worldwide alert against Gaddafi and 15 associates.

                  15 March: Gaddafi's troops begin bombing the eastern city of Ajdabiya to retake it from Libyan rebels. A day later the UN security council starts debating a no-fly zone. The Arab League, Britain and France back the resolution, tabled by Lebanon, while Russia and Germany express doubts. The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, calls for an immediate unilateral ceasefire in Libya.

                  17 March: The security council approves a no-fly zone and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians in Libya. The resolution is backed by 10 Security Council members, with five abstentions, but crucially there is no veto.

                  18 March: The Gaddafi regime responds to the resolution by announcing an immediate ceasefire and "the stoppage of all military operations" but its forces continue to attack the opposition-held cities of Misrata and Adjadbiya.

                  19 March: Leaders from Europe, the US and Arab League meet in Paris and switfly agree to send in the jets. The French jump the gun, sending in warplanes before the official agreement. Overnight the attacks begin on Gaddafi bases and positions.

              http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

              "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

              by Lawrence on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 11:22:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah. They captured some of the military's (0+ / 0-)

              ...weapon depots. Those belong to Gadafi's millitary. Would you not use them for self defense if you had to?

              "Corruptio Optima Pessimi" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

              by zenox on Sun Mar 20, 2011 at 12:47:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The people we are now calling "rebels" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pozzo

          ...started out as "protesters." Gaddafis forces  began shooting them.

          "Corruptio Optima Pessimi" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

          by zenox on Sun Mar 20, 2011 at 12:41:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think that's a fair point of view. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zenox

        I don't know nearly enough about his inner circle or his relationship with his troops (setting aside the mercs he hired) to say for sure.

        But in many cases there's always something to be said for cutting off the snake's head. But if it turns out Gaddafi's troops lack passionate fealty to him, a few hard hits to their ranks might do the job.

        Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the making of this post, but millions of electrons may have been severely inconvenienced.

        by USArmyParatrooper on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 08:49:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So instead of killing one... (0+ / 0-)

        ...we wipe out hundreds or thousands of his troops?  That is what I assume is meant by "power sources."  Not sure how that is better.  You can't destroy tanks and planes which are being used without killing the people in them.

        No, best to get him if we can.  The whole house of cards collapses at that point.  You save more lives that way.

        Rule number one in war in never underestimate your enemy.  Gaddafi has already declared civilian targets in the Mediterranean fair game.  He has SAM-5 missiles which can hit a jumbo jet 200 miles away.  The longer this drags on the more time he has to be creative...  

        "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

        by FDRDemocrat on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 10:31:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow! (0+ / 0-)

          So you  think it is a bad thing to shoot at a tank or a plane that are bombing and killing civilian population just because there are people in them? What do you thing a bomber plane or a tank is? An ice cream truck? They are machines made to be "killing" people. And the ones who sit in them are trained to kill. That's what they do.

          So it is a bad thing to stop a killing machine? I hope you never have to defend yourself from one of those. I wonder if you would just sit there and let them kill you just because killing the people in them is a bad thing...

          Weird stuff...

          "Corruptio Optima Pessimi" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

          by zenox on Sun Mar 20, 2011 at 12:56:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  My answer to that would be a no. (0+ / 0-)

      I think the Libyans need to do that part themselves.

      And once Gaddafi's heavy armour has gotten flattened by the air strikes, I'm confident that the Libyans will be able to take care of that part themselves.

      "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

      by Lawrence on Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 10:43:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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