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View Diary: Rep. Ed Markey: "We're in Libya because of oil" (134 comments)

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  •  even if oil is a factor... (6+ / 0-)

    if we do not send ground troops, it ends in the removal of Moammar Gadhafi and it saves thousands of human lives, would that really be so bad?

    •  But It Does Beg The Question (5+ / 0-)

      if they had no oil would be even go there?

      When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

      by webranding on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:19:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ooh of course but thats like asking (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fizziks

        if they were an ally would we be going in there?

        Look at Bahrain we keep the Fleet there. We are in no way going in to help some Shiites over throw a friendly Sunni ruler.

        So yes we pick and choose our battles. But if this one ends well Im not going to get upset about it.

      •  Kosovo had no oil (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        James Allen

        we waited until 8,000 men and boys were slaughtered before we went in.  

        I don't give a shite about oil.  I give a shite about the times we ignored slaughters in Rwanda, Liberia and Sudan.

        " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:53:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And of course (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          frostbite

          you have a convenient memory lapse when it comes to Iraq.

           

          •  I have zero memory (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nulwee

            lapse on Iraq.  What's you're point?

            I do have 122 letters from a friend (nun) who was a nurse in Liberia during the civil war.  Each one is a document of mutilations and murders because there was no intervention.  

            Perhaps you should not consider a career in mind-reading.

            " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

            by gchaucer2 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:03:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If I may jump in here, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Richard Lyon, frostbite, MrJayTee

              I don't think it's necessarily about the oil so much as it is about compelling interests in whatever region we're talking about. No, there is no oil in Kosovo, but the fact that a massacre was occurring in the backyard of our most important allies is a pretty big deal.

              In the Middle East and North Africa, one of our two main goals is the security of oil supplies. We may not get significant amounts of our oil from Libya, but our allies do. So we do have a compelling interest in interfering.

              So my point is that yes, there is a humanitarian component to this mission, but we only intervene when we get (or perhaps more accurately, perceive to get) something out of it.

              If the people one day wish to live / destiny cannot but respond / And the night cannot but disappear / and the bonds cannot but break. -- Abu'l-Qasim al-Shabbi

              by unspeakable on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:16:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I wouldn't be so sure that it (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Th0rn, joanneleon, kurious, Nulwee, JesseCW

      will guarantee the removal of Qadaffi. Saddam lasted 12 years with a no fly zone and sanctions. This could very well turn into a protracted civil war.

       

      •  Mark My Words. We'll Put Boots (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        trinityfly, JesseCW

        on the ground. I am watching TV. Hardball. It is all the same. War is good. You hear it said enough you start to think it is reality. We are going t do it ....

        When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

        by webranding on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:26:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely! n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joanneleon
        •  ill be really surprised honestly... (0+ / 0-)

          Obama seems very much in favor of doing actions only with the world.

          As it is Russia and China are starting to make noise. All the talk shows kept saying the Arab League getting behind this was so key and now they are saying we are going to far with the mandate.

          Grounds troops would be supported by none of the people I mentioned above at all. Obama seems very attune to that. I just don't see that happening at all

          •  LBJ started out (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joanneleon, JesseCW

            making the right kind of noises too.

            •  yes and we can look at other examples where (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345

              mandates and listening to the world happened... Lets look at the Balkans and first Iraq War.

              both times the US did not exceed the mandate and risk losing the world.

              Anyone can point to some point in history to help prove their point. It did not really address the substance of my comment at all though

              •  The US did not exceed its mandate (0+ / 0-)

                in Iraq?

                You have got to be fucking kidding.

                On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

                by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:09:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He said Iraq I (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  erush1345, yank2351, Agathena

                  not Iraq II.

                  And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

                  by tobendaro on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:11:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Bombing the shit out of sewage treatment plants (0+ / 0-)

                    and fucking air-raid shelters wasn't exceeding our mandate?

                    The highway of death wasn't exceeding our mandate?

                    On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

                    by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:55:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  yes simmer down Iraq I, the mandate was quite (0+ / 0-)

                  clear. And the US went through great pains to no exceed a mandate.

                  I actually think this could end like Iraq I. Where we do the mandate ask the Lybians to rise up and overthrow Gadaffi and they do and get slaughtered because the US won't exceed the mandate....

                  I really hope that does not happen but it is one of my worries

                  •  Please inject just a little bit of reality into (0+ / 0-)

                    your boosterism of all Non-GWB wars.

                    Start here.

                    http://www.amazon.com/...

                    Get back to me when you have some information showing that the UN mandated that we bomb hospitals.

                    On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

                    by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:57:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  the head of the Arab League, not the whole league. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nulwee

            "Intolerance is something which belongs to the religions we have rejected." - J.J. Rousseau -6.38, -4.15

            by James Allen on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:12:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  No need for boots (0+ / 0-)

          when a country has complete air power and an unliminate supply of bombs an entire country can be wiped out and every women and children killed.

          Troops on the grounds are only needed if you wish to follow a humane approach once the bombers are finished.

          War is costly. Peace is priceless!

          by frostbite on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:39:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So... Iraq, Libya... Who else was on that list? nt (0+ / 0-)

          Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

          by k9disc on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 06:47:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I said IF it ends that way. I am just saying (0+ / 0-)

        if that is the outcome I do not think people will complain

      •  But (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        Not much in the way of a rebellion/insurrection. Hussein probably woudn't have lasted after Gulf War I if we didn't pull the rug out from under the Shiites and Kurds who were rebelling. Instead, the admin encouraged them to finish him off and did nothing while Saddam's gunships killed them.

      •  Neither is Admiral Mullen (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        angel d, newpioneer, JesseCW, erush1345

        sure that Gadaffi will be removed successfully, as he said yesterday, this could end up as a stalemate.

        •  Stalemates (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angel d, Nulwee, JesseCW

          The Gulf War ended in a stalemate in 1991 and then little more than a decade later, the U.S. was invading Iraq.

          •  The oil companies (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            angel d, JesseCW, Agathena

            would like this to be resolved very quickly, IMHO.  I think that is why we moved in so quickly and forcefully.  The other methods that could have been used to help the rebels would have taken too long for their liking. And once the chair of the Libyan oil company threatened to give the oil contracts to China, India and Brazil last Tuesday, Boom! we had a UN resolution and we had a full blown attack on Libya.

            But oh, yes, it was about helping the rebels.  

            •  Would removing a substantial part of Global Oil (0+ / 0-)

              production, say 2%, serve as a hedge against inflation?

              I see several political benefits.

              The West gets to shore up Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and point popular ire towards Gadaffi.

              It's also a power sink in the Middle East. It really steals the thunder from the movement. Now all of a sudden it's the same old same ol'. It's a revolution supported by the architects of the previous regime.

              I think the whole Egypt movement might be in danger of being co-opted. I'd expect the leaders of the co-opting to come from Facebook and Twitter, most likely, the easiest to package and sell.

              This is what Psyops is about. Rest assured that the United States is trying to assert Full Spectrum Dominance over the Middle East via the internet as we speak. It's really rather freaky when you think about it.

              I don't like the idea of a no fly zone, myself. I think the people of the Middle East were doing quite well themselves with this revolution. Sendai and Fukushima scared the shit out of everybody. It would have been a great time for Détente and focusing on our own Green Revolution at home.

              But we are so short on Vision these days.

              Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

              by k9disc on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:24:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I remember when we were absolutely (0+ / 0-)

        only deploying troops to protect Saudi Arabia from -hitler- Saddam, and we would definitely not be making any offensive moves.

        I remember when Somalia was a purely humanitarian mission and we would not be seeking out combat or trying to re-make that nation.

        On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

        by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:08:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Soooo...we'll save thousands of lives (12+ / 0-)

      in the Middle East by taking thousands of lives?

      This war lust in kos is quite remarkable...I wish I had some yellow magnets to sell...

      "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

      by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:32:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is isn't it. Not sure what to make of it but (10+ / 0-)

        it's not good.   I had thot the past ten years would have opened a few more eyes.

        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:37:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  War lust? really? (0+ / 0-)

        I think you are making assumptions here. Just a little bit....

        I am saying... if things work out well, which we are a far way from knowing that.

        This will save thousands of innocent lives in the short run and MANY more in the long run if we do not have to deal with the current Libyan regime

        Also it seems to me you either think that soldiers fighting for Moammar Gadhafi  and innocent civilians that were being indiscriminately shelled in towns by Moammar Gadhafi's forces is no difference... I just dont agree there

        •  I can see that we don't agree... (5+ / 0-)

          I can see that you are convinced that war is the answer...because dropping bombs is war.

          What with bombs being so precise, I'm SURE no women and children will be blown to pieces...really, I'm sure.

          And here you are...promoting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...both of which can be found on any battlefield.

          Mark my words...however this ends up, you and your children or grandchildren will be fighting the relatives of those we will be killing in the Middle East.

          "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

          by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:57:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  thats just really an inaccurate statement about (0+ / 0-)

            what I think.

            But sure keep making inaccurate generalizations about what I think or believe that's fine

            •  Hard to back off from your own words, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              angel d, joanneleon, newpioneer

              isn't it...Maybe you have not really thought out your viewpoint or realized the firm ground upon which you stand...take a minute...we actually need thinking citizens in this country...not ones who can be manipulated by rhetoric and blood lust.

              "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

              by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:05:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I havent backed off one word (0+ / 0-)

                I just dont agree with your over broad general statements that try and pigeon hole people into things that they never said.

                All I have said from day 1 is this could end very positively for the people of Libya. Many lives could be saved by this operation. Yes Many Lybian lives. Will some innocent people die? Yes, they will but a lot less innocent people will die if this operation goes well than if Ghaddafi had gotten his way to mow down these people and indiscriminately shell this towns. Thats my point of view on it.

                If that meets your definition of war lust then to me its quite warped and wrong

      •  if this ends up like the Balkans... (0+ / 0-)

        where all the US did was use planes, no troops were fighting, no US soldiers were killed and we save thousands of lives. Will you still be railing against it?

        Im just curious because it seems you are just assuming that bad things are always going to happen

        •  "no US soldiers were killed" (6+ / 0-)

          David Gibbs and Kevin Reichert, 2 U.S. Army helicopter pilots, were killed in the war.

          •  yes yes I meant NO GROUND TROOPS (0+ / 0-)

            sure a US plane could crash tomorrow.

            But thanks for not actually discussing the content of the comment

            •  Well, they were just pilots... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              angel d, newpioneer, wsexson

              not nearly as important as ground troops...and the pilots that may be shot down in Libya surely will not count in your "book" either...

              Holy shit...

              "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

              by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:15:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  again you put words in my mouth and make (0+ / 0-)

                ridiculous statements.

                In the post where I made that incorrect statement. I was discussing how this operation could end up like the Balkans. Very few civilian casualities, the bad guy is kicked out and caught and many lives are saved.

                Someone decided instead of responded to the substance of my post to mention that I was wrong and that two US soldiers did die. I was wrong in that statement, admit it and apologize but it does not take away fro my point.

                THis operation could end up working and going well. You just seem to assume it wont

                •  We killed thousands of civilians. (0+ / 0-)

                  Calling that "very few" is a big stretch.

                  On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

                  by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:12:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  THousands is also a stretch (0+ / 0-)
                    Human Rights Watch has found that there were ninety separate incidents involving civilian deaths during the seventy-eight day bombing campaign. Some 500 Yugoslav civilians are known to have died in these incidents.

                    http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/...

                    Again when I say a few that is realtive to what Milsovich was doing and genocide he was committing. Did innocent people die? Yes. Were many more lives saved? Yes.

                    •   The vast majority of civilians casualties in (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      trinityfly

                      that war occurred after our intervention began.  We "stopped a genocide" in Bosnia like we did in WWII.

                      Incidentally.

                      If you think NATO's count of the civilians NATO killed is the way to go, have fun.

                      The passive voice here -

                      Did innocent people die?

                      says all that needs to be said about your purpose here, and it's not discussion.

                      Innocent people were fucking killed.  They didn't just, oh wow, somehow happen to pass away of some unknown cause.

                      On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

                      by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:54:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  innocent people die in every war (0+ / 0-)

                        does that mean no matter what no matter the circumstance the US should not get involved in a war?

                        I understand its upsetting and horrible I feel the same way. But I am just trying to see where you draw lines on intervention?

                        Also the numbers I cited were not NATOs numbers it was Human Rights Watch...

                        •  You are astounding... (0+ / 0-)

                          Hopefully, when war reaches out and touches us, you will also be cavalier about the innocents who die around you...

                          Because, you know what?  Innocents DO die all around you in war...most of us who have experienced that are not cavalier about it.

                          "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

                          by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 08:39:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  how am I being cavalier about it? (0+ / 0-)

                            Because I said people in die every war?

                            I just stated a fact... I dont see how that makes me cavalier with peoples lives...

                            I really think there is something being lost in the fact that you are reading this and not hearing me say it.

                            I am sorry that I do not express how people die in every war with the right tone that you are looking for.

                          •  I wish you well, I really do, (0+ / 0-)

                            and I hope your life remains untouched by the real world...no more now...you depress me.

                            "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

                            by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 09:14:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Sometimes, it's best to say "oh, thank you (0+ / 0-)

              for telling me.  I didn't know that".

              You didn't mean "NO GROUND TROOPS".

              You just didn't know those men died because history has been re-written and our media sucks.

              That's not your fault.  Most people don't know.

              On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

              by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:12:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  HAHAHA... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Richard Lyon, Cassiodorus

          WAR is the definition of BAD THINGS...thievery and murder never end well.

          "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

          by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 04:58:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  so it did not end well when WWII was ended? (0+ / 0-)

            Should we not have gotten involved in that one either?
            Was that a bad thing for the world that we fought that war? Or should we just have let it happen?

            •  Well, here's another kossack (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              angel d, Nulwee, Cassiodorus

              equating Ghaddafi with Hitler...Hyperbole much?

              Are you aware that we will be killing Libyan citizens who happen to disagree with YOU as to who should run their country???

              THEIR country...

              "Stand up, Get up" ~ Bob Marley

              by trinityfly on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 05:10:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You can say that about any war (0+ / 0-)
                Are you aware that we will be killing Libyan citizens who happen to disagree with YOU as to who should run their country???

                The same can be said by replacing any country who has fought a war.

                and I was not equating hitler and Ghaddafi, my point in using WWII was to show war is not always a bad thing.

                The US fighting that war was the right thing to do... it was was to point out war is not the definition of bad things, that that war did end well. The same way the war in the Balkans ended well...

                So as long as you keep making over generalized statements that sound nice in political science class but mean nothing in reality Ill keep showing examples of where you are wrong

            •  As far as all the leftists against WWII? (0+ / 0-)

              What were they? Anti-semites and traitors and idiots?

      •  It's amazing (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        angel d, trinityfly, newpioneer

        the warmongering that has gone down here during the last few days.  Just amazing.  

    •  That's the bar now? (0+ / 0-)

      Removal of Gaddafi.....who gives a shit about what comes after?

      On the other side of ..."Taghyir" or "Change" Square, others stripped off their jackets and advanced towards the gunfire, pointing towards their chests...in an invitation to shoot.

      by JesseCW on Mon Mar 21, 2011 at 07:05:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  where did I say I didnt care about the after? (0+ / 0-)

        Everyone on here just loves to put words in my mouth...

        Part of saving thousands of lives is seeing that there is a transition to a new government. Hopefully by no exceeding the mandate the US can hopefully get the Arab League to help out and there would be NO US ground troops what so ever to help with that.

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