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View Diary: Breaking news - Case sent to state Supreme Court - Wisconsin DA Shows Sham Of GOP Anti-Union Law (107 comments)

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  •  This statement really rubs me the wrong way... (38+ / 0-)
    Finally, the AG argues that irreparable harm will occur "if the courts are allowed to intrude into the lawmaking process."

    That is our system of government. The executive and legislative branches of government are kept in check by the judicial branch. That's the way it works. You can't just invent new procedures.

    It's an embarrassment that an Attorney General would actually say something like this. I think the GOP could use some lessons in basic civics. Of course, with all the cuts to education they want to pass, civics is probably one of the first classes on the proverbial chopping block.

    The history of the CIA's involvement with the American press continues to be shrouded by an official policy of obfuscation and deception -- Carl Bernstein

    by markthshark on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 01:34:35 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  That's not always how it works. (8+ / 0-)

      Courts can't intrude on the inner workings of legislatures.  That's separation of powers at work.  At a very high conceptual level, then, there are two constitutional doctrines in tension here: checks & balances and separation of powers.  

      •  I never said it was all right to "intrude..." (7+ / 0-)

        That's what the AG said. I said it was all right to "check" the powers of the other branches of government.

        In this particular case, I don't believe the court's intervention can be interpreted as an intrusion. Laws(s) were broken. Using the AG's definition, a court stepping in and deeming a law unconstitutional could be construed as an intervention.

        The history of the CIA's involvement with the American press continues to be shrouded by an official policy of obfuscation and deception -- Carl Bernstein

        by markthshark on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 04:48:05 AM PDT

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        •  Courts can't nullify laws because the internal (7+ / 0-)

          procedures of legislatures were violated.  For example, let's assume for argument that the PPACA was passed wrongfully using the reconciliation process; a federal court couldn't void the law on that basis.  That's because separation of powers prevents courts from looking to whether legislatures follow their own rules.  That would be an intrusion into the legislative sphere and couldn't be done under separation of powers principles.  

          As the diarist has more than ably pointed out, there's quite a bit more going on here than just whether the legislature has followed its own rules (there's a question of whether the constitution requires access of some sort, and there's also a question of whether the rule is actually the sort of conflicting rule contemplated by the open meetings statute), but as a general statement of constitutional principle, the AG correctly sums up the law w/ that statement.

          •  Notably, also, in ex Follette the court (6+ / 0-)

            in dicta says that the court can't intrude into the legislative sphere even where a law was passed in contravention of another statute governing the legislative process.  Here's the relevant dicta:

            Courts are reluctant to inquire into whether the legislature has complied with legislatively prescribed formalities in enacting a statute. This reluctance stems from 365*365 separation of power and comity concepts, plus the need for finality and certainty regarding the status of a statute. Baker v. Carr, 369 U.S. 186, 215 (1962). Although since Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137, 2 L. Ed. 60 (1803) courts have had the authority to review acts of the legislature for any conflict with the constitution, courts generally consider that the legislature's adherence to the rules or statutes prescribing procedure is a matter entirely within legislative control and discretion, not subject to judicial review unless the legislative procedure is mandated by the constitution.

            I think the (D)s will win this case ultimately, but it's not a totally obvious result.
            •  yes, the key part is "unless the legislative (9+ / 0-)

              procedure is mandated by the constitution."

              I think the law favors the DA's case too. I think it was 1975, the legislature essentially rewrote the open meeting law adding key provisions, and reaffirming that they are subject to the law, and i think also adding enforcement provisions because before the only enforcement was the forfeiture. The legislative history for these rewrites would be interesting. :)

              Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

              by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 09:43:23 AM PDT

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            •  Can't be more wrong (5+ / 0-)

              In dicta refers to the effect or subject of laws, not the actions that created them.  It means a legislature can pass a law on Monday that says red ties are illegal, and then pass another on Tuesday requiring everyone to wear red ties.  but if the process they use to pass the law on Tuesday is contrary to established law, then the product of the process is nullified.

              Simply, in dicta is about content,  not process.

              The Founding Fathers were a bunch of East Coast liberals

              by ImaJoeBob on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 11:04:32 AM PDT

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            •  Open Doors? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elwior

              There is the question about the closed Capitol. There is also the argument of the AG that reaches too far that says that you cannot interfere before the law is published and you cannot interfere on process after the law is published. Terrible argument to make in the TRO stage. He would have been much wiser to be silent on the second half if he wanted to win the first half.

              The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

              by freelunch on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 04:28:06 PM PDT

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          •  No he doesn't! (0+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            Ruthtopia

            Folks, Johnny Wurster is a troll and I'm guessing that he's a paid troll as his style is fairly smooth as he tries to pass off lies on behalf of Governor Wanker and the GOP!

            "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

            by elwior on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 09:41:00 AM PDT

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            •  gosh, out calling people a troll again? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MGross

              perhaps if you added substance to the conversation instead of just making personal attacks on members of the community, it would be a more effective technique.

              screaming "troll" every time someone disagrees with your opinion is getting tired.

              "In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." -John Adams

              by rcnewton on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 11:21:00 AM PDT

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              •  As always rcnewton, I invite you to (0+ / 0-)

                take a tall man!

                   T.U.s on this site need to police the trolls. TomP said that in another diary today, and I could not agree more.
                   We need to take care of the things we value.

                  As for you rcnewton, methinks thou dost protest too much!
                   Get thee to a nunnery (i,e., RedState!)

                "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

                by elwior on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 12:41:50 PM PDT

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                •  as a trusted user myself (0+ / 0-)

                  i invite you to chill out on the accuastions. i am a long time user on this site, and am in favor of democrats of all stripes being allowed to express their ideas without a hypocritical self-declared internet cop accusing veteran kos types of trolling for merely disagreeing.

                  talk about a closed minded republican style approach - perhaps you are the one who's due for a trip to RedState? i am sure they would dig your authoritarian approach there.

                  "In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." -John Adams

                  by rcnewton on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 02:59:03 PM PDT

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                  •  Once again I invite you to take a tall man, (0+ / 0-)

                    as I share a bit of truth with you:
                    You aren't fooling anyone.
                     You are wasting your time here, and mine too if I engage you any further.
                     

                    "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

                    by elwior on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 03:59:30 PM PDT

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                    •  self proclaimed dkoscop and truth teller, eh? (0+ / 0-)

                      i am not trying to fool anyone. you don't know me - and in fact your homophobic comments are open to the glare of public scrutiny.

                      yet you attack me (or anyone else) who may disagree with your obama-apologist ways. dissent is healthy - and i won't be stifled by your strong arm tactics.

                      "In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." -John Adams

                      by rcnewton on Thu Mar 24, 2011 at 04:09:52 PM PDT

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            •  Are you a gag poster or something? (0+ / 0-)

              This seems to be a regular thing for you.

              I'm guessing all the law profs over at Volokh Conspiracy who think that the TRO's a legal travesty are Paid Right Wing Trolls (TM) too.

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