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View Diary: Why Am I Seeing Hate Speech On Daily Kos? (782 comments)

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  •  Do you consider (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NotGeorgeWill, Nucking Futs

    Green Day's "Holiday" to be hate speech?

    Heads or tails. Call it.

    by Uncle Chigurh on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:44:03 AM PDT

    •  do you consider (11+ / 0-)

      the N word hate speech?

      It is better to marry than to be tortured continually with ungratified desire. 1 Corinthians 7:9

      by Scott Wooledge on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:47:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not familiar with that song. (0+ / 0-)

      What is in the lyrics?

      I'm gay and I'm pissed. I'm not giving up, I'm not giving in, I'm not backing down, and I'm not going away. I'm one of the Angry Gays. Deal with it.

      by psychodrew on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:50:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lyrics link (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        psychodrew

        ... so long as the profit motive is more important than the Hippocratic Oath, we will never get to where we as a nation must ultimately go...


        Follow me on twitter:
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        by wyldraven on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:52:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The topic I'd rather (13+ / 0-)

        Engage is is this appropriate at Kos?

        Sure we can find pop culture song that use the word in question, just as we can find ones that use the "N" word. I recognize the word will not be erradicated entirely

        If Uncle Chigurh would like to argue this is appropriate, he should really do so directly, and just say, "There's nothing wrong with that diary." Rather than distract.

        It is better to marry than to be tortured continually with ungratified desire. 1 Corinthians 7:9

        by Scott Wooledge on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:56:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You call yourself a liberal (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan

        and you're not familiar with that song?

        ???

        Heads or tails. Call it.

        by Uncle Chigurh on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:57:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Lyrics (6+ / 0-)

        So looking back at this song - since I was exposed to Green Day on a nightly basis because of my sister - here are the lyrics.  Now after the lyrics, I am going to use what I call 'words of hate' and I want you to realize, your statement/comment, Uncle Chigurh, is off base.

        "Holiday"

        Say, hey!

        Hear the sound of the falling rain
        Coming down like an Armageddon flame (Hey!)
        The shame
        The ones who died without a name

        Hear the dogs howling out of key
        To a hymn called "Faith and Misery" (Hey!)
        And bleed, the company lost the war today

        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
        On holiday

        Hear the drum pounding out of time
        Another protester has crossed the line (Hey!)
        To find, the money's on the other side

        Can I get another Amen? (Amen!)
        There's a flag wrapped around a score of men (Hey!)
        A gag, a plastic bag on a monument

        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
        On holiday

        (Hey!)
        (Say, hey!)

        (3,4)

        "The representative from California has the floor"

        Sieg Heil to the president Gasman
        Bombs away is your punishment
        Pulverize the Eiffel towers
        Who criticize your government
        Bang bang goes the broken glass and
        Kill all the fags that don't agree
        Trials by fire, setting fire
        Is not a way that's meant for me
        Just cause, just cause, because we're outlaws yeah!

        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives

        This is our lives on holiday

        Now the question is this, how are we even bringing up this song that was well known for its inflammatory language used to show Anti-Bush sentiments and later was accused of being Anti-American by the Right-wing even comparable to hate speech such as the word "Fag" or "Faggot"?  To me its apple and oranges (ie it is not even in the same ballpark), political stance does not excuse language in general.  

        But considering there is nothing in the lyrics that come even close to the offending words 'fag or faggot.'  I don't care what kind of ridiculous semantics you want to try to use to make your point, but the words 'fag,' 'faggot,' 'queer,' 'lesbo,' 'dyke' etc have generally never been considered political in nature - but a label or target word to use against an individual or group of individuals for the sole purpose of identifying them as being 'abnormal' and worth targeting to the point of violence.  That is like my Greek Church members trying to pretend the word "Mavro" used the way the old hateful members of the congregation use to refer to the cleaning staff is just as awful as the word "Negro" or "Nigger."  

        There is no excuse for starting a diary with the title "Nigger" is there? Well there is no excuse for starting a diary with "Fag" as the title.  Especially if the diary itself is more a passing comment of a few lines that do not even come close to bringing civil discourse into the overall piece.  Just to say 'we call liars and people that don't listen to the truth or do the right thing fags' is what? I will tell you this, its not discussing the politics of an individual it is to ridicule them.  

        Frankly growing up in a day that "Fag" was used in such a way, it was understood to target that person for ridicule - and not because we 'knew they were fake, liars, or thinking wrong' it was to make fun of them and make them feel like they were worthless.  So I do take offense with flippant disregard that language and the like are used.  Especially when it is used in such a way that it is blatantly a cry for attention.

        And just so you know, I don't find Holiday to be offensive, I just find it annoying that I had to bring up the actual lyrics of Green Day to point out that you are using that as an argument for no reason at all.

        •  Edit (0+ / 0-)

          "That is like my Greek Church members trying to pretend the word "Mavro" used the way the old hateful members of the congregation use to refer to the cleaning staff is just as awful as the word "Negro" or "Nigger.""

          Should read ""That is like my Greek Church members trying to pretend the word "Mavro" used the way the old hateful members of the congregation use to refer to the cleaning staff is not as awful as the word "Negro" or "Nigger." When it is."

        •  Dude... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sychotic1, Nucking Futs

          the lyrics say "kill all the fags who don't agree."

          Now clearly Green Day is using that phrase as a rip on redneck assholes, but some dishonest jerkoff could easily pull that out of context and paint Green Day as a bunch of violent bigots.

          I'm not defending the piece of shit troll diary that this diary is responding to.  I'm just pointing out the logic fail of absolutism.

          Heads or tails. Call it.

          by Uncle Chigurh on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:27:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And that's the thing (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            allergywoman, Uberbah

            you come across as defending a diary that uses the word  throughout its context as excusable because reading john de herrera, he literally is saying its ok to use the word 'fag' because he's just 'calling out the liars,' etc.  

            The song uses that one line that says 'kill all the fags who don't agree.' As an example of the the extreme hate.  And frankly the content of that line is exactly the wording john de herrera is using - to say the word is ok.  When we all know it is not.

            •  For the last time: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fritzrth

              I don't know who the fuck this "john de herra" douchetool is, and I have not read his apparent massive fail of a diary.

              I was responding to a comment on the top rec'd diary.

              Fuck john de herra and the troll he rode in on.

              Heads or tails. Call it.

              by Uncle Chigurh on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 11:21:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Then for the first time... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                svboston

                Read the diary you are commenting on. Read Clarknt67 diary you are commenting on its thread. It talks about John de herra's diary, and then you will understand what we are talking about.  John de herra's offensive 'innocent comment' diary is what everyone is up in arms about.  I mean seriously you start a thread with "Do you consider Green Day's "Holiday" to be hate speech?"  and it comes across as you are comparing what John de herra's original diary is just making the same kind of comment that Green Day's "Holiday" was making.  It wasn't. It was doing exactly the opposite to the point that his diary was/is suggesting 'let us make faggot an ok word to use against liars and people we don't agree with!'  That's why you need to read.

          •  Talking about something != promoting it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TM
            some dishonest jerkoff could easily pull that out of context and paint Green Day as a bunch of violent bigots.

            And they would be utterly transparent and dismissed two seconds later.

            "Pragmatists don't DO things! They explain to you how things CANNOT be done." - AndyS In Colorado

            by Uberbah on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 11:04:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Why? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ebby, Sychotic1, Nucking Futs

      Why would that be hate speech?  They are railing against the atrocities going on in this country.  

      Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

      by Miss Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:57:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think the argument is that the use of (0+ / 0-)

        that word in Holiday is inappropriate. Interesting that we are approaching a time where we feel we can't even type the word. Here are the lyrics to Holiday so you don't have to click the link.

        "Holiday"

        Say, hey!

        Hear the sound of the falling rain
        Coming down like an Armageddon flame (Hey!)
        The shame
        The ones who died without a name

        Hear the dogs howling out of key
        To a hymn called "Faith and Misery" (Hey!)
        And bleed, the company lost the war today

        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
        On holiday

        Hear the drum pounding out of time
        Another protester has crossed the line (Hey!)
        To find, the money's on the other side

        Can I get another Amen? (Amen!)
        There's a flag wrapped around a score of men (Hey!)
        A gag, a plastic bag on a monument

        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
        On holiday

        (Hey!)
        (Say, hey!)

        (3,4)

        "The representative from California has the floor"

        Sieg Heil to the president Gasman
        Bombs away is your punishment
        Pulverize the Eiffel towers
        Who criticize your government
        Bang bang goes the broken glass and
        Kill all the fags that don't agree
        Trials by fire, setting fire
        Is not a way that's meant for me
        Just cause, just cause, because we're outlaws yeah!

        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
        I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
        This is the dawning of the rest of our lives

        This is our lives on holiday

        I'm not a fan of Holiday, but I love American Idiot and that song does include the word "faggot."

        "Pretty soon we're not going to be able to find reasonable decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serving public office." Sheriff Dupnik, AZ

        by voracious on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:14:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Their singer (8+ / 0-)

      is bisexual and may use the word if he feels like it, as he is  not attacking gays.

      In fact (that part of) the damned song is about the Bush administration attacking gays and how that's WRONG.

      It isn't nice to block the doorway/It isn't nice to go to jail/There are nicer ways to do it/But the nice ways always fail/'It isn't nice, it isn't nice'/Well thanks for your advice - Malvina Reynolds

      by indiemcemopants on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:12:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You do understand (7+ / 0-)

      that it's incorporated in the song as an example of the hate speech used by those Green Day despise, don't you?

      In other words, I'm pretty sure if you asked Green Day whether it was hate speech, they'd say "yes".

    •  Hearing that word... (0+ / 0-)

      ...when I listen to that song does make me feel supremely uncomfortable.  But context matters, and to go into a bit of English class style analysis, my reading of the song is that that bridge's lyrics are spoken by a different speaker than the rest of the song.  The speaker of the rest of the song is included in the "fags" that the bridge's speaker condemns to death.  The use of the word is one of condemnation as it's done in a way to display the unjust mindset of the speaker of the bridge's lyrics.

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