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View Diary: Fighting Dems: Bareknuckled Politics (242 comments)

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  •  Disagree (4.00)
    We've heard it all before. My point is that for us on the Front Page, at least most of us - the debate is over on this approach. It is our approach.

    Continued whining is counterproductive in my opinion now.

    See, for better or worse, we on the Front are not debating whether to do this. We've decided.

    Let's debate the next question if you please, but not this srategy.

    "Just say no to torture." -Semi-Anonymous Blogger.

    by Armando on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:40:14 PM PST

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    •  From way back here (4.00)
      on the last page, I have to agree with my mom--sometimes you have to stoop to their level in order to be able to kick them in the ass.  This administration presents one of those times.  

      AspiringtobethepersonmydogthinksIam

      by FOYI on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:49:30 PM PST

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    •  You're strong...like BULL! (4.00)
      ...but that's not what I was saying.

      I'm suggesting that observers seeing both sides of the debate will generally gravitate toward the more reasoned, effective and appealing approach... and by not discouraging the nay-sayers, you might actually get more people to jump on the bandwagon...you get rid of factionalism by absorbing the other factions, not alienating them.

      But as for me and my vote -- nail the bastards.

      Putting grapes back on the vine...

      by PBJ Diddy on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:54:42 PM PST

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      •  ummm (none)
        really?

        I'm suggesting that observers seeing both sides of the debate will generally gravitate toward the more reasoned, effective and appealing approach...

        how's that workin' out fer ya these days?

        Left Is Port, Right Is Starboard.

        by lipris on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:59:07 PM PST

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        •  Well, (4.00)
          I guess I'm just not one of those SYFPH people. If I don't like what someone says I either respond as best I can or ignore them, but I don't usually tell them to stay out of the debate.

          I don't see it as a sign of weakness that I'm willing to hear both sides.

          Putting grapes back on the vine...

          by PBJ Diddy on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:27:47 PM PST

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          •  Diddy (none)
            My point is there is no debate as to what is gonna be posted on the front. The Front Pagers are committed to it. Why bitch about something you cannot change? Repeatedly.

            "Just say no to torture." -Semi-Anonymous Blogger.

            by Armando on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:34:11 PM PST

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            •  Because I'm a democrat? (4.00)
              Well, you're point is right, I suppose in your place I would just say "You people are wasting your breath" instead of "stay away from my posts"...and then I'd ignore them.

              People will NEVER stop bitching about what you or anyone posts on the front, there are a lot of bitchers here (Yo!) and once you've silenced all those whiners, the people who usually support you will start bitching about some other thing you should or shouldn't have posted...we still have diaries about tip jars for God's sake...but it's actually kind of funny because you've been quite tolerant of my pseudo-dissent here, which is in a sense what I've been urging. I'll stop now.

              Putting grapes back on the vine...

              by PBJ Diddy on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:38:10 PM PST

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      •  Sorry, I disagree (none)
        Being thoughtful and reasoned worked so well for Kerry in the election. I wonder what would have happened if, as soon as the swift boat liars started, Kerry would have said, "Oh yeah, well if what I did 30 years ago is fair game, so is what you did 30 years ago." Then  set up groups to start talking about Bush the drug addict, Bush the drunk, Bush the womanizer, Bush the draft dodger, and so on. It might've worked.

        The point here is, there are no observers to alienate. Either people don't care, or they are already in the game. I really believe the reason we are starting to win these battles is because we are fighting back and we don't even have to be as big because we have a powerful ally, the truth.

        Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. Albert Einstein

        by DrSpike on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:17:45 PM PST

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        •  I don't really know what you're talking about... (4.00)
          I didn't say don't fight back -- I said I think it's a mistake to tell people on our side who disagree with one particular tactic that they have no right to say they disagree with our approach. Let them argue, and if we're right, then they will lose the argument. But if we have to tell people to cram their opinions because we have a strategy that works (and it's a little early to declare victory) then I'm not sure we're the better party we think we are.

          Putting grapes back on the vine...

          by PBJ Diddy on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:34:02 PM PST

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          •  Ah (none)
            Sorry, I get it now and totally agree with you. I thought you were talking about being nice to republicans.

            Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. Albert Einstein

            by DrSpike on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 09:08:31 PM PST

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          •  I generall agree (none)
            I'm with Armando, that we've got to take the fight at them.  We know that you can't trust them, you can't compromise with them.  As Norquist said, bipartisanship is the equivalent of date rape.

            As to the SYFPH diaries...  You know, I actually don't have a problem with those when they are directed at the fucking whiners stuck in the past.  The conspiracy theories, the whining about Ohio, whatever.

            But I do have a problem with the attitude when it's directed at people talking about the future.  i.e what to do, how to say it, etc.  The abortion debate here seems to suffer form a lot of people not listening to one another... similarly with some other issues like Israel, or simple economic issues.

            "If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied." - Rudyard Kipling, 1918

            by Steve4Clark on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 10:17:53 PM PST

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      •  I agree -- always debate, never concede. (none)
        I suspect that each of the debates on tactics here ends up convincing a few more progressives who still had reservations about an all-out approach. And that approach won't work unless we can convince them.

        Those who don't remember the future are doomed to repeat it.

        by Abou Ben Adhem on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 08:16:40 AM PST

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    •  If we're really going gloves-off... (4.00)
      ...then how can it possibly be that we've not given Ken Mehlman the full Gannon treatment?

      Mehlman, a man who oversees press releases that condemn Harry Reid's stellar scores among pro-gay organizations, a man who helped George Bush milk the gay marriage debate into hundreds of thousands of votes, is gay himself and yet none of us has bothered to bring this to the attention of his decidedly anti-gay wingnut followers?

      I certainly hope that the "bareknuckled" bravado with which all of us, including our front-page posters, are so enthralled includes calling out hypocrisy when it comes up.

      Of course, there's always the chance that Mehlman needs an extra $20,000 and will fess up to orchestrating Gannon's daily White House visits in exchange for frequent tastes of his guckert. Or is it gherkin? I can never remember.

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