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  •  The big Enlightenment thinkers.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tnproud2b, hmi

    would laugh their asses off at the knowledge level of today's American education majors.

    Not sure putting education majors and Enlightenment thinkers in the same conversation is really the best way to go.

    Unless the goal is to talk about diametric opposites, of course.

    I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

    by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 06:13:55 AM PDT

    •  Well... (15+ / 0-)

      ...that might have been true a generation ago (though I don't think it was quite as bad as you seem to).

      But education departments are much better now than they used to be.  This was one of the most notable developments in higher education that I saw on returning to teaching after more than a decade away, just some seven or eight years ago.

      Beyond that, your comment has no utility.  That is, it doesn't move us forward in any way, and implies an attitude towards today's teachers of just the sort that bothers me so.  Certainly, it is not something an Enlightenment thinker would make (nor would that thinker be laughing, having more respect for others than that).

      It isn't really true that our teachers today aren't very good or very well educated.  You seem to have accepted that belief... but on what basis?  Yes, we have problems, but we can't solve them by simply continuing to put down education majors and, by extension, teachers.

      •  There is no "moving forward"... (1+ / 3-)
        Recommended by:
        tnproud2b
        Hidden by:
        nosleep4u, ManhattanMan, zett

        as long as our dimmest are our teachers.

        There is no "basis" that will get dim people to accept the proposition that they're dim. They may be dim, but their self-interest is as strong as anyone else's. (And there's nothing per se wrong with that.)

        I respect the education field enough that I want bright people in it - it's a sine qua non sort of thing (goes to your "utility"). And that, in addition to all of the usual reforms class size, salary, work hours, etc..

        And I'm confident that I am in a significantly better position to assess what Enlightenment thinkers thought than just about anybody here. For example: it is certain that Enlightenment thinkers wouldn't stand around all day chirping "Respect me! Respect me!". They were busy with little things like constructing the intellectual pillars upon which Western thought rests.

        Any comparison of Enlightenment thinkers to education majors is just plain dumb - no matter how good it may make education majors feel about themselves. May as well compare Gauss to a 4 year old playing xbox.

        I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

        by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 06:57:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What Makes You Believe... (15+ / 0-)

          ...that our "dimmest" are teachers?

          I don't think you read very well.  I do not compare teachers with Enlightenment thinkers, but say our educational system stems from the Enlightenment.

          Finally, no real thinker bases statements on their own "position."  Instead, a real thinker bases statements on evidence and logic.

          Look to yourself before calling our teachers "dim."

          •  Hah. Reminds me of.... (0+ / 0-)

            the (newly-minted) proverbial inbred. drooling, mentally incapacitated great^10 grandson of Richard the Lionhearted demanding respect because of who his great^10 grandfather is.

            Pro tip: When you reference an august lineage, the educated person simply looks at you and thinks "damn, what the hell went wrong with THAT family"?

            I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

            by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 08:40:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Present your credentials that (10+ / 0-)

          prove the validity of this statement:

          And I'm confident that I am in a significantly better position to assess what Enlightenment thinkers thought than just about anybody here.

          Mine?  Besides the BS in Political Science with several minors from the Dark Ages (i.e., late 70s/early 80s), the Masters, the ongoing study in a non-ed field (with ed implications) and continuing research and reading in areas which interest me...that range from neuroscience to skiing to early fur trade history in North America to environmental philosophy and the dynamics of space travel....shall I go on?  

          •  May As Well Add In Mine (7+ / 0-)

            One of the areas of specialization I used to complete my PhD is Early American Literature.  Familiarity with the Enlightenment is a necessary component of that.  Furthermore, My book The Rise of the Blogosphere contains chapters centering on Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton, and Thomas Jefferson.  My research for that certainly increased my familiarity with the Enlightenment.

          •  Eh... (0+ / 0-)

            Some folks from a uni gave me a doctorate in that specific field a while back. They were even nice enough to give me an MS in maths - very generous folks. :)

            And please, no. Don't go on.

            I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

            by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 08:42:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Doctorate in History? Philosophy? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ubertar, middleagedhousewife, JanL

              What was your dissertation?

              Have you published?

              •  You're better off ignoring punditician (11+ / 0-)

                than engaging him. He's a troll on education issues, and a religious nut to boot.

                "We can have concentrated wealth in the hands of a few or we can have democracy, but we can't have both."-- Justice Louis Brandeis

                by ubertar on Sun May 01, 2011 at 09:42:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ubertar, Van Buren

                  It intrigues me, though, that he seems to think that, here on dKos at least, the Enlightenment belongs to him.

                •  lolwut? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ubertar

                  I don't have a religious bone in my body.

                  I appreciate that you "true progressives" enjoy simply making shit up, but seriously - cmon.

                  I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

                  by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 10:41:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else, then, (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AaronBa, JanL

                    and if so, I apologize. But I could have sworn I've seen you in a number of theism vs. atheism diaries, arguing on the theist side. I don't know where you're getting the "true progressive" thing from. You are a bit of a troll when it comes to education-- you always say the same thing about teachers being dumb and poorly educated. You always get shot down by people who know better from direct experience, but you never learn. I don't think you're a deliberate troll-- you're probably a decent guy who's just set in his ways and loves to spout his opinions. I think we're all guilty of that to some degree, myself included. Have a conversation with a few young teachers and re-evaluate your opinion. You may be surprised.

                    "We can have concentrated wealth in the hands of a few or we can have democracy, but we can't have both."-- Justice Louis Brandeis

                    by ubertar on Sun May 01, 2011 at 10:53:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  lolol! (0+ / 0-)

                      It's cute watching you continue to simply make shit up. I'm pretty sure they don't get any more a-religious than me (although there are plenty of ties).

                      I totally appreciate, however, that to the overwhelmingly large pro-stupidity lobby, advocacy for non-stupid teachers would count as "trolling". Thus, I don't criticize you for that perspective - it makes perfect sense, given your position.

                      I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

                      by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:00:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I said if I was mistaking you for someone else, (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AaronBa, JanL

                        then I apologize-- ironic, though, that the comment I found where you said you were an atheist is a hidden comment:
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...

                        "We can have concentrated wealth in the hands of a few or we can have democracy, but we can't have both."-- Justice Louis Brandeis

                        by ubertar on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:11:10 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  on the other hand, (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AaronBa, JanL

                          in this comment, you imply atheists are idiots. Are you calling yourself an idiot?
                          http://www.dailykos.com/...

                          "We can have concentrated wealth in the hands of a few or we can have democracy, but we can't have both."-- Justice Louis Brandeis

                          by ubertar on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:14:28 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh lawd please make teh stupid stop. (0+ / 0-)

                            One time, slowly, for the dim:

                            Lots of people are idiots, both religious and not. Jettisoning religion from one's bag of tricks is only a vaccination against idiocy due to religion. There are a jillion other ways to be an idiot, with more being discovered daily.

                            I leave it as an exercise for the reader to discover what "per se" means.

                            I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

                            by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:29:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I get what you were saying in that post (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AaronBa

                            now-- when you said, "There are plenty of other ways to be an idiot." you meant, "besides being religious", not "besides being atheist". I would have deleted my comment if I could. "Per se" doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how to read your post-- it could be that you like idiots. It wouldn't surprise me. :)
                            Anyhow, I'm glad we agree on issues of religion and atheism, and I'm not sure how I got the wrong idea about you on that. There must be someone else on here with a similar handle. You are something of a troll when it comes to education, and a bit of an arrogant ass as well. But that's ok. As they say: "See ya. Wouldn't want to be ya". :)

                            "We can have concentrated wealth in the hands of a few or we can have democracy, but we can't have both."-- Justice Louis Brandeis

                            by ubertar on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:51:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Philosophy. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BoxNDox

                Dissertation was phil lang, mostly about Rorty and a bunch of other people you've never heard of.

                I left the field soon after, going in the math direction. (I prefer working with people who ACTUALLY solve problems more than people who only TALK about solving problems lols.)

                I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

                by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 10:40:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Read My Books (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bkamr, cardinal

                  In them, you'll see Richard Rorty both quoted and discussed.  If you want to see a book review I wrote with Rorty mentioned in the first paragraph, You can.

                  Your assumption that others have not read what you have is rather presumptuous.

                  Also, your field, clearly, is NOT the Enlightenment.  By your own admission.  Please don't claim expertise when you don't have it.

                  By the way: I am surprised that anyone who has studied Rorty can be as closed-minded as you.  What, for example, do you mean by making the distinction you do, between thinking and doing?  Are you saying that Rorty did not do?  Are you saying that thought is not, in itself, valuable?

                  Inquiring minds want to know.

                  •  (facepalm) Uh.... no. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BoxNDox

                    I try to avoid 2nd rate thinkers. But thanks.

                    And yah uh.... Since they don't have a Department Of Enlightenment, (western) philosophy is what serves as proxy for that being my field. Dumb to say different.

                    I have no idea what you're babbling about re: thinking and doing. My guess is that you're trying to be uberprophilosoperdude. On that topic, I recommend less talking, and more reading Sellars.

                    Pro tip: Being anti-stupid is not the same as being "closed minded". lols

                    I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

                    by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:10:49 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, Please (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cassidy3

                      You, who couldn't make it in academia, calling anyone "second rate"?

                      Rorty, et al were NOT part of the Enlightenment.  Ergo, the Enlightenment was not your primary field.

                      The Enlightenment, by the way, does not belong to Philosophy.  Political Science, History, Literature, and more also study it, and contribute to understanding of it.  I also have a degree in Philosophy, though an undergraduate one.  My specialty was symbolic logic; never would I have then claimed more than passing familiarity with the Enlightenment (that came later).

                      You, yourself, made the thinking/doing distinction.  Don't ask me what you meant by it.  Do that on your own.

                      As to being anti-stupid... how can you position yourself that way when your comments are so dumb?

                      Oh, and wrong.

                      •  A DKos Exclusive: Rorty Throwdown!!! (6+ / 0-)

                        This could get ugly, folks!

                        Please, tell us more, both of you!

                        No, better yet -- tell us less!

                      •  (sigh) (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        BoxNDox

                        I didn't claim that Rorty was part of the Enlightenment (what an asinine thing to attribute to someone lols). I do, however, appreciate my error: one would have to be familiar with PMN, and deeply familiar with what it talks about, to see the relevance. I suppose I also assumed at least a basic knowledge of just what goes into a a (western) philosophy doctorate's education. (shrug) Presupposing knowledge is often a recipe for tears. Usually I'm better on that score - my apologies.

                        And I did "make" it in academia. A fair number of us just decide we want to do something else (and are able to).

                        (Full disclosure: I did, however decide I wasn't good enough at maths to be more than a middlin' level Ph.D. in math (those guys are crazy smart), so I said screw it, and just went to straight to work in the field.)

                        and LOLOL at "undergraduate specialty in symbolic logic". Please, just stop, dude. Congratulations on learning how to apply Conditional Proof, though. You should be aware, however, that the field goes somewhat beyond that.

                        I don't recall placing any weight on thinking vs. doing, but I'll take your word for it. (shrug)

                        I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

                        by punditician on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:54:37 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  please dont feed the troll (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AaronBa, Mostel26

                        ty

                        i did, and Im sorry for it.

                        We all have photographic memories. Some people just don't have any film.

                        by fireflynw on Sun May 01, 2011 at 12:26:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  oh my hipster alert LOL (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AaronBa, cardinal, Mostel26
                  and a bunch of other people you've never heard of.

                   LOL

                  I assume you can afford your own cheap black frames, yes?

                  And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                  by Mortifyd on Sun May 01, 2011 at 02:28:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  As far as dimmest and respect (7+ / 0-)

           I blame  parents who don't  teach their children to respect their teachers .
            In my opinion education is better than in the past.
            The biggest problem with our education system ,respect for teachers and civility in the classroom, is much worse.
           Anyone familiar with school systems  knows too well, unenlightened parents who blame the teachers, when their darling perfect  little angels are disciplined.

           

        •  HR for the right-wing meme (4+ / 0-)

          of teacher's being incompetent and self-serving.

          "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

          by nosleep4u on Sun May 01, 2011 at 10:54:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think it's reasonable... (4+ / 0-)

          ...to say that the 4,000,000 with college degrees (many of them advanced degrees) are "dim".

          It's a nasty insult, and one that doesn't help promote reform. It should be walked back.

        •  Thank you for illustrating (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AaronBa, virginwoolf, bkamr, Tookish

          the point of this thread.

          How do you know they are the dimmest? Have you been to an Ed.class lately?   Do you know their GPA's?  Do you know what each and every one of them does to further the learning environment of their students? The extra classes they take? To knowingly go into a field of work that will earn them little respect?

          Our society worships those who make a lot of money, regardless of their intelligence.  If teaching was a high paying job, teachers would be admired, and even the worst would have excuses made for them (see professional sports.)

          We all have photographic memories. Some people just don't have any film.

          by fireflynw on Sun May 01, 2011 at 12:24:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You mention tht the "dim" have a particularly (6+ / 0-)

          hard time imagining themselves as being dim.  Are you  alluding to the Dunning-Kruger effect?

          Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
              tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
              fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
              fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
              recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

          Simply put, dim people not only don't recognize they are dim, but also they tend to overestimate their own brilliance while being unable to recognize others who actually are brilliant.  (Think the Donald.)

          Furthermore, the Dunning-Kruger effect continues:

          Meanwhile, people with true ability tended to underestimate their relative competence. Roughly, participants who found tasks to be relatively easy erroneously assumed, to some extent, that the tasks must also be easy for others.

          Simply put, truly brilliant people seem to underestimate their own abilities, or at least, have a pretty humble view of themselves and rather generous assumptions of others

          Looking at your comment regarding the "dimness" of all those in the teaching profession, you seem to hold an extraordinarily high opinion of yourself:

          And I'm confident that I am in a significantly better position to assess what Enlightenment thinkers thought than just about anybody here.

          Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World

          by bkamr on Sun May 01, 2011 at 01:32:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  one demographic worth watching is (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AaronBa, joycemocha, Tookish

        the number of new teachers vs old teachers in a system. If there is a large number of newly minted teachers it means either the system cycles out older teachers or teachers after a few years find a more lucrative or rewarding vocation.

        The other demographic is that of advanced degrees. How many postgrad degrees are academic degrees and how many are administrative degrees

        •  That Last... (13+ / 0-)

          ...about administrative degrees is become more and more to the point.

          We're seeing school administrators in place today with no background in the classroom, with programs for "training" them proliferating.

          That bodes ill for the future.

        •  Excellent point here. (10+ / 0-)

          Quality districts recruit the skilled and more experienced teachers.  Others cycle through and trash out newly minted teachers.  They don't all leave the profession.  Many others are, like me, looking for those quality districts that openly state they bias toward hiring more experienced and skilled teaching staffs.

          Too many administrators are putting in the minimum time possible in the classroom before moving into administration.  I'd prefer to see administrators who have at least ten years or more in teaching before they go for their administrative training...and I'd like to see those folks go for a more substantive doctorate in teaching and learning, not just administrative BS.

          •  some years ago I found myself unemployable (6+ / 0-)

            as a teacher despite a level 17 teaching certificate and 10 years of teaching in Appalachian and inner city schools and an MA and MS.  I bailed out after an administrator told me I was too high on their pay scale for them to afford me for the schools they were hiring for, as all their "elite" districts were staffed by people who were promoted from within.

            So teachers with lower level certificates and less education and less experience were teaching in the higher level schools (I finished HS with several of the people) and I was too expensive for the entry level jobs they reserved for new teachers

          •  absolutely (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AaronBa

            this:

            I'd prefer to see administrators who have at least ten years or more in teaching before they go for their administrative training...and I'd like to see those folks go for a more substantive doctorate in teaching and learning, not just administrative BS.

            and I personally, as an educational specialist (soon to be Educational Therapist), would strongly suggest that they should be getting super familiar with cognitive neuroscience in their substantive doctorates. There is no fracking reason why we should be fighting over educ policies that make no cognitive sense with all the research out there that, while still in its early stages (25 years in) leaves no doubt about certain principles that underpin how all our brains are wired to learn and that, when considered in our teaching environments, leaves no ambiguity that certain approaches such as: cramming fast paced curricula into kids' brains, using only standardized tests as meaningful measures of learning, an over-simplified approach to the learning goals that doesn't see the incredible cognitive demand of new information/set-shifting/attentional demands--demands that are intentional or not, expecting all kids to learn at the same pace, absorb the same information or even demonstrate their learning in the same ways, and expecting that just b/c a student learns X this week, that they have successfully consolidated it to a substantial enough degree that they can then apply and generalize it to other learning situations are. not. appropriate if what we really care about is indeed learning.

            Administrators should understand this stuff inside and out.

            Let the yoke fall from our shoulders; Don’t carry it all, don’t carry it all; We are all our hands and holders; Beneath this bold and brilliant sun; And this I swear to all - The Decemberists

            by Tookish on Sun May 01, 2011 at 08:35:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And here's an example of "liberal" (10+ / 0-)

      teacher bashing.

      •  Isn't that a common "meme"...the best are not (8+ / 0-)

        getting into teaching?  That is a bs argument.  Have been taking student teachers for 22 years.  Hard not to find energy, and drive than in most 20 somethings getting the reins of a classroom for the first time.  My experience at the elementary level...the people who are good teachers are just plain good with kids.  They can make the connection.

        Hetty Green queen of supply-side bonhomie bone-drab If you know what I mean On the road It's well-advised to follow your own path In the year of the chewable Ambien tab tHE dECEMBERISTS

        by bongojazz on Sun May 01, 2011 at 07:52:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  apparently... (9+ / 0-)

          ..."the best" are going into comment thread trolling.

          at least that's what one is to gather from reading here.

          ;^)

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Sun May 01, 2011 at 10:41:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The best are NOT going into teaching. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AaronBa, ssgbryan, Calamity Jean

          Teaching does not pay enough and it doesn't offer a career path that could end with a huge salary. This stops many people from considering it. We have no idea how many of these people might have been excellent teachers.

          If a kid has $120k in college loans, it is economically impossible for her to become a teacher. She has no choice but to go for a corporate job.

          Now...does the fact the someone has a big outstanding loan mean that they are one of "the best"? Not necessarily. But what are the odds that all the people who become teachers just happen to be those with low debt, an employed spouse, and/or wealthy families? Because that is who our teachers are today -- people with low debt, or people who are getting help from their family.

          If we want better teachers, we need to recruit from a wider pool of applicants. This means raising salaries and also considering non-education majors. Older people who are switching careers should also be given a chance to try as well.

    •  Some of the best (8+ / 0-)

      writers on this web site are teachers. How does that square with you teachers are dim statement?

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