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View Diary: Power of Community: Fukushima Rov #54 (225 comments)

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  •  It seems to me that he does not think the current (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera, rja, Joieau, Into The Woods, neroden

    response is adequate.

    This is a war, and we need to build a "bridgehead" at the reactor itself instead of fooling around with the turbine buildings or transporting contaminated water."

    My take is that he feels that they need to get into those reactors like at Chernobly.  

    •  The current response really is not adequate (6+ / 0-)

      I completely agree with your interpretation, and with Ishikawa's view. The situation is very serious right now, and needs to be handled better.

      •  but you are opposed (0+ / 0-)

        to sourced blogs pointing this out.

        George Bush is Living proof of the axiom "Never send a boy to do a man's job" E -2.25 S -4.10

        by nathguy on Wed May 04, 2011 at 11:02:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no objection at all to sourced blogs saying that (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ricklewsive, peraspera, rja, Recall

          As I have explained in other comments, my objection to what Ishikawa is saying mainly has to do with the politics of mobilizing a public response to TEPCO's and the government's poor response to the disaster at the Fukushima plant. His rhetoric is not effective because it is not well grounded in fact (that doesn't mean he is wrong, it just means he doesn't have the evidence). If he wants to make an argument that the cores of the reactors are melted, in the absence of publicly available evidence, there are more effective methods and venues than a roundtable discussion on Asahi TV.

          Now, as for your diary, what is your source for this claim:

          So, they've been leaking out this story a bit at a time, now the story is

          Well

             "Tokyo is up on the roof"...

          At some point, they will move key functions out of Tokyo.
          (emphasis added)

          As the introduction to your diary makes clear (by referring to "being on the roof" as a metaphor for already being dead), you are suggesting that Tokyo is already dead, or close to it. You seem to be saying that you came to this conclusion based on a report on NHK television that prime minister Kan is considering a proposal to do a study about relocating the capital in an emergency, and your implication is that the emergency is now (since you are stating unequivocally that "Tokyo is up on the roof.").

          Do you stand by your claim that "Tokyo is up on the roof" in the sense you spell out in the introduction to your diary? And if so, what is your source that Tokyo is already dead or nearly so?

          My question matters because of responses such as this one.

          If you have evidence, please share it, because if you are right and Tokyo is in imminent peril there are some things I need to do right now to protect people I am responsible for. If you don't have evidence, they you own the comment I linked above, and everything that goes with it.

          •  Do the numbers (0+ / 0-)

            Compare the quantity of fuel at Fukushima to the quantity of fuel at Chernobyl.

            When i Dded up units 1-4, I got 6 times the fuel load as at Chernobyl.  

            Now when I added up the fuel loads at all 7 units, I got EE2 the amount of fuel atchernobyl.

            And add the risks at dai ini and onogowa?

            Now I saw a video report that the Tokyo area was reporting radioactive pollen,  so i figure T least some of the cloud is working its way down south.

            Whats problematic is the material is coming as particulates, aerosols and the health physics is classified all on surface radiation, there are people who state that particulate contamination is EE2 worse,  then radiated wave.

            Apparently much of the physics is calculated on source radiation emission, not swallowed or inhaled aerosols.

            If you follow the literature, it's all fine.  If you read what people who are exposed say,  it appears a lot scarier.

            Now do you want to trust TEPCO?  NISA? Kan?  
            Then trust they know the bigger picture.

            Heres what I woul dhave done.  Children and people who desire children should have unsaid the area a long time  back.  Leave the city to old people until the reactors are shut in.

            The risks started march 11, the results don't show up for years.

            Is everyone in Tokyo going to die tomorrow, heck no.

            Is the city dying?  Well I fyou consider the rise in infant mortality that will come?  Yep.

            Take. Look at DU issues in Iraq.  The army says its not radioactive, yet the mortality, morbidity and mutagenic rates are way up....

            Here's a good one.  Would you recommend anyone you care about eat gulf seafood?  EPA says its fine.   Yet a year later th edolphins are dying like mad.  

            Wheres the scientific data of hazard?  Nowhere?
            Is anyone in position of authority saying anything? Nope.

            It may be. A decade before the gulf is safe and thats a simple chemical exposure.

            Watch  the miscarriage artesian japan....

            Oh and given the low birthdate in japan, you think they can tolerate a generation of high miscarriage and low fertility?

            sk the russians what happens when that happens...

            George Bush is Living proof of the axiom "Never send a boy to do a man's job" E -2.25 S -4.10

            by nathguy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 06:54:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The situation is bad in Fukushima (3+ / 0-)

              and I appreciate your concerns. In fact, I share most of your concerns. The situation in Tokyo is worse than it should be, thanks to TEPCO, but I don't think it is as bad as you think it is. That's just a difference of opinion, and I have no objection to your opinion.

              My comment to you is really about this claim that you made in your diary:

              So, they've been leaking out this story a bit at a time, now the story is
              Well "Tokyo is up on the roof"...
              What does "the story is" mean in this case? I understood the phrase to mean that, according to your interpretation, Kan's comment about studying the possibility of decentralizing government bureaucracies REALLY meant that the situation in Fukushima was much worse than the government has been telling us, and now the government is preparing to evacuate Tokyo because of some imminent danger from the Fukushima disaster. In other words, you seemed to be saying that the government ("they") were telling people, through their actions, that Tokyo is as good as dead.

              I'm pretty sure from the response to your diary that I'm not the only one who understood your words in that way.

              If you have not done so already, could you read this comment. It provides a link to a news story and a brief commentary by me that explains what I think is really going on with Kan's statement. Basically I'm saying that discussions about decentralizing Tokyo are not motivated primarily by concerns about Fukushima.

              To boil down my criticism to its essentials, you seem to assume in your diary that Kan's statement is primarily a response to conditions at the Fukushima plant, and I think that assumption is unwarranted.

              Thanks for listening.

              •  Do you think he's going to just come out (0+ / 0-)

                and say?

                Hey we just had a huge earthquake and tsunami destroy 200miles of the northern shore and make  half a million people homeless, and the good people at TEPCO screwed the pooch and released enough radiation to wake up every science fiction monster of the last 50 years. Consequently, we really need to evacuate every man woman and child under 40 out of china, Sendai, futuba, Tokyo
                And send them to the southern islands?

                So basically Kyoto has to become new Tokyo, and most of our economy is going to shut down because we wil lack manpower, electricity,  etc.  Oh its also half rations for everyone because the spring harvest is harvestable at night and our best fishing grounds are glowing and not from algae....  

                Nope, he's going to sit there, hope like he'll a kamikaze saves him and make plans he's afraid to execute.

                Meanwhile. The Japanese fertility rate may go from 1 2 to 1.0

                In 5 years what do you expect the fertility rate of japan to be?  Japan also dislikes imperfection, do you think they will tolerAte a generation of monsters?

                George Bush is Living proof of the axiom "Never send a boy to do a man's job" E -2.25 S -4.10

                by nathguy on Fri May 06, 2011 at 12:34:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Please stop talking about the Japanese in this way (3+ / 0-)

                  "A generation of monsters" would be their CHILDREN. You are implying that the Japanese are so culturally rigid that they would disdain their own children if they weren't perfect. This is precisely the type of troubling stereotype that has garnered you donuts recently, both for statements about the Japanese as well as about Jewish people.

                  Please avoid making these kinds of offensive statements here on JNI. Sincerely.

                  I do feel that the Japanese are prone to a higher level of birth defects and fertility problems, potentially, in some areas of Japan. And that is horrifying. But to say that the Japanese will be unable to "tolerate a generation of monsters,"meaning their own children, is completely insensitive cultural stereotyping.

                  Again, please avoid making offensive statements like this here. There are many Japanese posters who participate and look on, and these kinds of statements do not advance your concerns -- which I, and many others may share -- from Ishikawa.

                  •  What does the Literature say about Hibakusha? (0+ / 0-)

                    Surviving Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Experiences and Psycho-social Meanings

                    Aiko Sawada, Julia Chaitin & Dan Bar-On

                    Contact information: Prof. Aiko Sawada, Department of Nursing, Faculty of
                    Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, 2630 Sugitani, Toyama-
                    shi, 930-0194 Japan

                    Telephone: 0081 76 434 2281 (ext) 2423 (office)
                    e-mail : aiko@ms.toyama-mpu.ac.jp

                    and the second set connected to post-war life (post-war social

                    action; health concerns affecting the survivor and/or the children; views on Japanese

                    society, including the social stigma associated with being a survivor; survivor guilt;

                    hard life afterward; and worries about the future).

                    http://www.amazon.com/...

                    This new addition, featuring an additional chapter that reveals the fates of the six survivors forty years later and describes the
                    socia
                    l stigma, medical difficulties and psychological and philosophical adjustments involved in being a "hibakusha" or "explosion-effected person" only makes this journalistic triumph even better.
                    The survivors had to continue their lives through their will to survive, overcoming all obstacles such as pain, poverty, disease, famine, and lack of humanity. The survivors of the bomb had to live the rest of their lives suffering with more then just their physical pain, but also with their social non-acceptance. People would not hire A-bomb victims, or Hibakusha (literally- explosion affected people) because Non-Hibakusha employers developed a prejudice against survivors

                    ,,,,

                    Three years before the explosion, Miss Sasaki was engaged to be married, by arrangements through her parents. The couple liked each other, and accepted the arrangements. The two started a life together, but her fiancé was drafted into the war. Upon his return, after the bombing, he did not come back to her. His family had had second thoughts on allowing their son to marry a Hibakusha and a cripple. Miss Sasaki eventually gave up hope on finding a husband,

                    http://www.irrawaddymedia.com/...

                    But the devastation they suffered was not only about living with radiation burns and medical problems. To this day, Hamamako, others like her and their families suffer from the social fallout of the atomic bomb blasts: stigma and discrimination toward survivors.

                    “We were considered contaminated and therefore must be avoided,” Hamamako explained, adding that even infants in survivor families are stigmatized.

                    “I told the audience how awful it is to live as a hibakusha,” said Hamamako, who now lives in Saitama, a suburb west of the capital Tokyo, with her husband and daughter. “My mother never spoke to me of that time because she did not want to recall the long years of how she and my sister, as well as everybody else around them, suffered. They were so badly affected from radiation burns that never healed.”

                    When they got married, Hamamako’s husband had in fact made her promise to keep her ‘hibakusha’ status a secret, to protect the family from social discrimination. “I respected his wishes. It was only two years ago that I decided to speak out and I am so glad I did. I realise now how important my story is for world peace,” she said.

                    http://www.parentcentral.ca/...

                    If any negative effects on fetuses or their mothers are found in the coming months or years, Japanese culture experts say they are hoping the social stigma similar to that suffered by victims of radiation poisoning after Hiroshima and Nagasaki will not resurface.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    However, cases of social discrimination against residents of buraku areas is still an issue in certain regions. Outside of the Kansai region, people in general are often not even aware of the issue, and if they are, usually only as part of feudal history. Due to the taboo nature of the topic it is rarely covered by the media, and people from eastern Japan, for example, are often shocked when they learn that it is a continuing issue.
                    The prejudice most often manifests itself in the form of marriage discrimination, and less often, in employment. Traditionalist families have been known to check on the backgrounds of potential in-laws to identify people of buraku background. These checks are now illegal, and marriage discrimination is diminishing; Nadamoto Masahisa of the Buraku History Institute estimates that between 60 and 80% of burakumin marry a non-burakumin, whereas for people in their sixties, the rate was 10% [3].
                    Cases of continuing social discrimination are known to occur mainly in western Japan, particularly in the Osaka, Kyōto, Hyōgo and Hiroshima regions, where many people, especially the older generation, stereotype buraku residents (whatever their ancestry) and associate them with squalor, unemployment and criminality. [4].

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    A handful of apartments, motels, night clubs, brothels, sex parlours and public baths in Japan have put up signs stating that foreigners are not allowed, or that they must be accompanied by a Japanese person to enter[21] However, these signs are very rare and many Japanese claim that the prohibitions are due to perceived social incompatibility—for example, foreigners may not understand proper bathhouse etiquette—and not racism.[citation needed]
                    Activist Debito Arudou, an American-born naturalized Japanese citizen, sued the Japanese government several times for not upholding Article 14 of the Constitution.[22][23][citation needed]
                    In housing there is also discrimination based on ethnicity. In a 2006 survey by the Information Center for Foreigners in Japan, 94% of foreign residents reported being refused by at least one real estate agent.[24]
                    In fact, there were a substantial number of lawsuits regarding discrimination against foreigners. For example, in 2005, a Korean woman who attempted to rent a room was refused because she was not a Japanese citizen. She filed a discrimination lawsuit, and she won in Japanese court.[25]
                    “Discrimination toward foreign nationals in their searches for homes continues to be one of the biggest problems”, said the head of the Ethnic Media Press Centre. Organizers of the service said they hope to eradicate the racism that prevents foreigners, particularly Non-Westerners, from renting apartments since there are currently no laws in Japan that ban discrimination.[26]
                    [edit]

                    http://search.japantimes.co.jp/...

                    Is 'disability' still a dirty word in Japan?

                    "Japan is extremely behind [other countries] in the inclusion of the disabled in jobs and education," he says.

                    Onoue, who was born with cerebral palsy and has been wheelchair-bound for 22 years, points to Japan's public school systems which, early in their lives, shunt people with disabilities into "special schools" that accommodate only the disabled.

                    Onoue notes that to this day the education ministry remains firm in its stance that education systems for disabled and non-disabled people should be separated. In actual practice, though, it is up to local boards of education -- not the disabled people or their guardians -- to decide whether they attend special schools or regular schools along with non-disabled pupils, he said. Which means that in the end, neither disabled people nor their guardians have any say.

                    http://www.japantoday.com/...

                    Nearly seven out of every 10 people with disabilities said they have faced discrimination or biased treatment, an annual government report showed Friday. The fiscal 2010 white paper on measures for disabled people,

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    Hibakusha and their children were (and still are) victims of severe discrimination due to lack of knowledge about the consequences of radiation sickness, which people believed to be hereditary or even contagious.[12]
                    Studs Terkel's book The Good War includes a conversation with two hibakusha. The postscript observes:
                    There is considerable discrimination in Japan against the hibakusha. It is frequently extended toward their children as well: socially as well as economically. "Not only hibakusha, but their children, are refused employment," says Mr. Kito. "There are many among them who do not want it known that they are hibakusha."

                    The parents will be nice, because parents usually are decent to their kids, but, lets just see how the new generation of
                    Hibakusha do.

                    You can be as oh so sensitive and politically correct as you want. I'm just calling it as I see it.

                    In fact, here, Have some nice Fukushima cheese.
                    Let's see how much you believe in the social system
                    after eating that for a year.  

                    George Bush is Living proof of the axiom "Never send a boy to do a man's job" E -2.25 S -4.10

                    by nathguy on Fri May 06, 2011 at 03:26:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Look, I really am not following you here (4+ / 0-)

                      Social stigmas are not the same as monstrosity, and social stigmas from decades and decades ago are not the same as those now. I understand the concern, but not for the same reasons.

                      Moreover, telling me to "eat Fukushima cheese" is literally absurd; I have personally had thyroid cancer -- very likely from radioactive exposure, I was told. Presumably you're trying to warn me about the dangers of Radioactive Iodine. You're absolutely preaching to the choir there, so kindly don't try to portray me as one of your "apologists." Thank you.

                      I am not trying to be politically correct; I'm actually just sensitive, perhaps because I've actually had near-fatal thyroid cancer as a kid and know what kind of experience many will face -- I believe -- from the information that I've seen.

                      Again, please stop stereotyping the Japanese and insulting posters here who would otherwise agree with your anti-nuclear position if they weren't presented in a culturally insensitive way. Or in the case that you just presented to me, a personally offensive one.

                      We are done talking. I've said all that I have to say on this topic.

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