Skip to main content

View Diary: NEA moves to endorse Obama, and I react (219 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  The battle between "common" wisdom (8+ / 0-)

    and knowledge will never cease. I understand and agree with your position. I do not believe Union endorsement is as important as jobs and more jobs to Obama's reelection. I have faint hope of the employment situation being any better come November 2012 and I believe it will be much worse.

    Education is not a race. Someone needs to help Obama understand this. No one is ever best, many are brilliant but no one is best.

    Practice tolerance, kindness and charity.

    by LWelsch on Sun May 08, 2011 at 04:27:02 AM PDT

    •  I'm Trying to Figure Out the Logic Here (20+ / 0-)

      Obama wants the union endorsement because it means millions of dollars in cold, hard cash and feet pounding pavement to get the vote out.

      The union wants to endorse Obama because ...

      Find me fast on Daily Kos by following me.

      by bink on Sun May 08, 2011 at 04:33:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's at the beginning of the diary (15+ / 0-)

        There are some valid reasons for the NEA to make this move. After seeing what is going on in Wisconsin, Michigan, New Jersey, and so forth, it is clear that we need Democrats in Washington if we want our country to continue to have public schools that try to meet the needs of all students.

        In the end, I agree with teacherken--this administration has some horrible education policies, and we need to make our opposition to them clear.

        "H.R.W.A.T.P.T.R.T.C.I.T.G -- He really was a terrible president that ran the country into the ground."

        by Reino on Sun May 08, 2011 at 05:00:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Some horrible policies? Some? (11+ / 0-)

          everything Obama believes---mayoral takeover, more standardized testing (but not for his daughters), more charter schools, more merit pay, more neo liberal agenda all across the board in schools, has already been proven failures every where they've been tried.

          Simply put: Obama's agenda, which is Bush's on steroids, is leading to the destruction of public education.

          "It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don't cause spills. They are technologically very advanced." 4-2-10 Obama's George Bush moment

          by neaguy on Sun May 08, 2011 at 08:48:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're aware that having Democrats in (12+ / 0-)

          Washington isn't stopping what's happening in those states, right?

          It's surprisingly hard to have a reasonable conversation with a person who considers you a cockroach and publicly fantasizes about killing you with neurotoxins.

          by JesseCW on Sun May 08, 2011 at 08:52:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I Am (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW, becxx, elwior

            I wish there were better options out there, and I agree that the NEA, which I belong to, should not endorse Obama.

            Democrats are better than Republicans when it comes to public education. The only reason it's true is that it's impossible to be worse than Republicans.

            "H.R.W.A.T.P.T.R.T.C.I.T.G -- He really was a terrible president that ran the country into the ground."

            by Reino on Sun May 08, 2011 at 08:57:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are better options. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Uberbah

              They're just really scary and have the potential to backfire.

              It's surprisingly hard to have a reasonable conversation with a person who considers you a cockroach and publicly fantasizes about killing you with neurotoxins.

              by JesseCW on Sun May 08, 2011 at 09:11:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Electorally, there really aren't better options... (4+ / 0-)

                ...particularly not in the near term. It's the Democrats or the Republicans.

                Anyone who thinks that there's a realistic chance of a viable third party on the Left that actually wins elections (as opposed to spoiling them) anytime in the next 3-4 Presidential cycles is fooling themselves.

                •  If you limit yourself to two choices presented (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Uberbah, chuckvw, psychodrew

                  to you by people who openly state they wish to destroy everything you value, then you've simply conceded defeat.

                  I said nothing at all about third parties.

                  I don't really know why you did.

                  It's surprisingly hard to have a reasonable conversation with a person who considers you a cockroach and publicly fantasizes about killing you with neurotoxins.

                  by JesseCW on Sun May 08, 2011 at 10:06:54 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So the "better options" are... what? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    foufou, Cedwyn

                    If you're saying there are "better options" than Democrats or Republicans, then you're either (a) not talking electorally (and I specifically indicated that I was speaking in electoral terms), or (b) talking about a third party.

                    Now, I do think that there's an extent to which a sort of "progressive caucus" within the Democratic Party—a kind of balance to the Tea Party, something like the New Right with a decade-scope plan for taking over the party—could be very effective if done right, but again that has to be a longer-term project.

                    And I'm not sure we have a longer term to work with, to be perfectly honest. I think the next decade will determine the course of the next century or two for this country—and perhaps this species.

                •  how many times does that need to be said? (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OIL GUY, foufou, arpear, ribletsonthepan

                  good !@#$%& grief!

                  It is Obama or a republican.

                  accept it already

                  It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                  by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 10:07:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Repeating over and over again (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    badger, Uberbah, elwior, psychodrew

                    that you believe it's impossible for this country to do better than we've done in the last two years does not actually make it so.

                    It just demonstrates that you believe 10 million people losing health insurance in that time frame is "good enough".

                    It's surprisingly hard to have a reasonable conversation with a person who considers you a cockroach and publicly fantasizes about killing you with neurotoxins.

                    by JesseCW on Sun May 08, 2011 at 10:55:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  oh FFS (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      arpear, foufou

                      we're talking about candidates for president in 2012.  it is obama or a republican, okay?

                      of course america, and obama, can do better than the last two years.

                      on the flip side, do you have a credible candidate in mind?

                      seriously, jesse...do everyone a favor and do a little more thinking before you type.

                      It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                      by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:28:26 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, Cedwyn. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        psychodrew

                        It's just "realistic" to cheer the jobless recovery and insist that refusing to fight for real improvement to working peoples lives is "pragmatic".

                        You're apparently going to have to find out the hard way (again, since 2010 didn't sink in) that you can't brow beat jobless people with no insurance into going to polls.

                        It's surprisingly hard to have a reasonable conversation with a person who considers you a cockroach and publicly fantasizes about killing you with neurotoxins.

                        by JesseCW on Sun May 08, 2011 at 01:58:23 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  And therein lies the dichotomy (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    badger, JesseCW, Uberbah, 3goldens

                    responsible for widespread electoral apathy.

                    Obama needs to put more distance, ideologically, between himself and the republicans if he wants anything close to the enthusiasm he had in '08

                    They didn't take baby steps when they saved the Rich.

                    by Whimsical Rapscallion on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:12:07 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  shoulda woulda coulda (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ribletsonthepan, foufou

                      is he as we know him demonstrably better than a republican?

                      yes.

                      It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                      by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:26:26 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah. And on a scale of 100, (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Uberbah, elwior

                        5 is demonstrably better than 2.

                        What's your point?

                        They didn't take baby steps when they saved the Rich.

                        by Whimsical Rapscallion on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:37:33 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  my point is this (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          foufou

                          i am not an absolutist by any measure.  i don't do black and white.  i'm overly keen on nuance and the in-betweens.

                          but for crying out fucking loud:

                          IT IS OBAMA OR A REPUBLICAN IN 2012

                          pretending that isn't true displays all the political acumen of a sea cucumber.

                          and given that it is obama or a republican, guess what?  it's about one of the only times a true binary is valid:

                          obama is better than the republican.

                          yes or no?

                          if yes, then obama.

                          if no, then republican.

                          it's just !@#$%& like that, no matter how much anybody wishes it weren't.  for pete's goddamn sake!!!

                          i mean, if you're starving and someone offers you pb & j or a salad, it's all well and good to wish for a steak.  but the pb&j will unquestionably sustain you better than the salad.

                          for the fucking love of fuck, how is this a difficult concept?

                          It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                          by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 01:40:33 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Delightful! (0+ / 0-)
                            i am not an absolutist by any measure.  i don't do black and white.
                            IT IS OBAMA OR A REPUBLICAN IN 2012
                            !@#$%&

                            Aside from that, salad is much better for you than a PB&J.

                            They didn't take baby steps when they saved the Rich.

                            by Whimsical Rapscallion on Sun May 08, 2011 at 02:22:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh my fucking god (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            foufou
                            i am not an absolutist by any measure.  i don't do black and white.  i'm overly keen on nuance and the in-betweens.

                            but for crying out fucking loud:

                            IT IS OBAMA OR A REPUBLICAN IN 2012

                            that is not a contradictory statement.  do you know the meaning and usage of "but" as it appears above, as a conjunction?

                            another fun thing about english:  context!  as in:

                            i am not an absolutist by any measure.  i don't do black and white.  i'm overly keen on nuance and the in-betweens.

                            but for crying out fucking loud:

                            IT IS OBAMA OR A REPUBLICAN IN 2012

                            ...and given that it is obama or a republican, guess what?  it's about one of the only times a true binary is valid:

                            salad being "better" for you than pb&j depends entirely on circumstance.  pb&j absolutely, incontrovertibly, provides more sustenance than a salad.  get real.

                            It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                            by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 02:44:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  maybe (0+ / 0-)

                            if it's natural organic peanut butter, and 100% real fruit jelly on whole wheat bread stacked against a typical side salad you'd find in a restaurant.

                            But when I eat a salad, It's a big ass bowl of it, with lettuce, carrots, tomatoes, various nuts, dried fruit, broccoli, cheese, other veggies laying around, some deli meat if I have it,  and a homemade balsamic vinaigrette.  You can't beat that with a sammich, mate.

                            Also, Obama is way closer to Reagan than FDR on the ideology scale, so whatevs.

                            Oh, almost forgot... "but" doesn't eradicate contradiction.  Consider "I'm a vegetarian, but I like my cheeseburgers medium rare" or "I'm absolutely not a cannibal, but that guy's arm was delicious!"

                            I also appreciate the honesty you've shown in abandoning "!@#$%&" to just type "fuck" right out.  it's more real that way.

                            They didn't take baby steps when they saved the Rich.

                            by Whimsical Rapscallion on Sun May 08, 2011 at 02:56:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well, mate (0+ / 0-)

                            i make wacky salads, too.  i put ginger and raw garlic in mine sometimes.  but those things are hardly standard in a salad and you know it.  that's why they're called "chef salads" or "walnut chevre salad" and the like.

                            anyhoo, you didn't click the link, did you?

                            Definition of BUT
                            1
                            a : except for the fact b : that —used after a negative c : without the concomitant that d : if not : unless e : than —not often in formal use

                            2
                            a : on the contrary : on the other hand : notwithstanding —used to connect coordinate elements b : yet c : with the exception of —used before a word often taken to be the subject of a clause

                            as in "i don't usually go for suspense/horror flicks, but i really have to admire Hitchcock."  or, say, "i am not an absolutist, but in this instance it's valid."

                            It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                            by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 03:54:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ginger and raw garlic (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cedwyn

                            now that's some commentary I can agree with!  With peanuts and raisins, one could almost make salad and PB&J one and the same.  Almost.  If only you'd clarified "side salad" at the fore, perhaps all this useless enmity could have been avoided.

                            Do you grate them?  I find both to have overpowering flavors otherwise, but we all have different tastes.

                            They didn't take baby steps when they saved the Rich.

                            by Whimsical Rapscallion on Sun May 08, 2011 at 04:13:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Whimsical Rapscallion

                            see, side salad is the default.  that's why you specify otherwise.

                            ; P

                            i just chop it super fine/thin.

                            It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                            by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 06:03:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm gonna try it (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cedwyn

                            many happy salads to you

                            They didn't take baby steps when they saved the Rich.

                            by Whimsical Rapscallion on Sun May 08, 2011 at 06:12:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ditto (0+ / 0-)

                            the best salad i EVER had was at this hole in the wall in rotorua, NZ.  at a place called barbarella.  LOL

                            It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

                            by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 06:49:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  and you're aware (5+ / 0-)

            that this diary is about presidential endorsement, right?

            and that the point of Reino's post was that we should look to WI and MI as case studies of what republicans will do, given an inch.  

            ergo, the need to prevent that nonsense at the federal level.  in which case, being upset with the NEA for endorsing the only viable prospect is absurd.

            less knee-jerk, more serious, please.  

            It's complicated. - Desperate Housewives

            by Cedwyn on Sun May 08, 2011 at 10:04:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you entirely miss the point (10+ / 0-)

              which is there is absolutely no need to endorse right now.  

              There is no primary issue

              active involvement of teachers will realistically not start before next summer anyhow

              in the meantime any leverage on issues that matters is undercut

              "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

              by teacherken on Sun May 08, 2011 at 10:35:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cedwyn, foufou

                the flaw in this thinking is the idea that the White House will be scared into progressive education policies by a hold out of the NEA endorsement.  

                Winning an election is all about political calculation, and I think the White House would correctly calculate that in the end it would get the NEA endorsement, regardless of a less than perfect education record, and would not be moved to re-order its priorities when it comes to political battles in a significant way.

                Like it or not, that's the kind of pragmatism that marks this administration---the belief that it cannot deliver all things to all people, and that it will prioritize accordingly, and in order to get re-elected.  And really, the most important thing this president can do for democrats is to get re-elected.  If he doesn't, any version of the democrat vision is a mute point.  Ask Jimmy Carter.

                In short, imo, holding off the NEA's endorsement would not compensate in results what it would lose in time to organize, raise money and GOTV for 2012.

              •  Spot on. As a fellow NEA member, FWIW, I sent (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Uberbah, aliasalias, elwior, chuckvw

                an email with a "No Support," at this time.  

                Duncan's assinine rules for getting funds (eg must accept charters) put our state out of the running for money, entirely.  As a result, our special ed children will be losing their aides and our general ed classes will be going up to 36-38 students ... since teachers will need to be laid off.

                He can congratulate himself all he wants (which is what he seems to do in every speech I've ever heard him make), but how in the world are we even going to FIT 8-10 more desks in rooms that were made for 25 kids?  Our school was built in 1965; the kids were smaller back then.  They already have to move down the aisles sideways, now.  

                And, I have a class set of 28 books that will now be shared in classes of 36-38 and across the day among 158.  They've already moved us from a 5 to a 7 year text adoption cycle.  It's only been 4 years and those 28 text books I have are already being held together with duct tape.

                Yes, Sec. Duncan and President Obama ... be proud that American children are sharing and can't take home books being held together with duct tape.

                As for our dear, special ed children ... we saved the aides who help them eat and go to the restroom and helped them all day long in a thousand other ways by our union voting to give up our negotiated raise over the last 2 years.  There is no raise to give up in the new contract ... so we will not be able to save our para-educators.  

                Yes, Sec. Duncan and President Obama ... our union gave a damn about these children and gave money out of our pockets to care for them while you used corporatist claptrap rules to simply reject them and public education in our state out-of-hand.

                Sorry.  I'm with you, and in no rush to see my union dues donated early like this.

                Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World

                by bkamr on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:18:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Just ran to the window to see if pigs were flying (0+ / 0-)

                  given it seems Uberbah and I agree on something LOL.  Well, almost, I'm "still in," but I'm just NOT "in at all" on this policy point.

                  Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World

                  by bkamr on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:53:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Democrats in Washington (6+ / 0-)

              aren't stopping the destruction of Unions.  They've sat by and watched for 30 years.

              As this President did, when he had a historic majority and decided to ignore the EFCA.

              Doing high-kicks and screaming "go team" is  destroying the working class of this country.

              Those of us who are members of that class are a bit disturbed by that.

              It's surprisingly hard to have a reasonable conversation with a person who considers you a cockroach and publicly fantasizes about killing you with neurotoxins.

              by JesseCW on Sun May 08, 2011 at 11:17:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  don't cite NJ, Reino (0+ / 0-)

          the machine  Democrats here have decided to follow the Christie agenda on education,  union-busting and most of the "toolkit"  "reform" program.

          It's not a fake orgasm; it's a real yawn.

          by sayitaintso on Mon May 09, 2011 at 04:14:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Focus on the state battles! (0+ / 0-)

          What the NEA should be doing, instead of giving away the store, is to focus time & money on the state battles over teacher and labor rights in general.  Try to hold the line at the state level.

          The Ed Dept seems to be taking a lot of heat, resulting in Arne's recent "love letter" to teachers.  I think the Admin is becoming aware just how angry a lot of classroom teachers are with Obama's education policies, and trying to figure out how to keep the kittens in the box for the election.

          Folding early just tells them they don't have to worry about us.  At least try to hold the administration's feet to the fire!

      •  Reason for NEA Endorsement (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        foufou, loblolly

        The union wants to endorse Obama because ... his Republican opponent, if elected, would try to destroy public education root and branch?  Does that not seem like a sufficient reason?  Do we want to vote for Ralph Nader again and elect George W. Bush instead?

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site