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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meetup--Crisis of Capitalism: Neo-Fascism, Solidarity, and Compassion (158 comments)

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  •  You don't even have the slightest clue what (11+ / 0-)

    the imagery you're using means.

    The goddamn IWW completely rejects your belief that begging for good terms from the Bosses, and trying to be "reasonable" with people who would sell your children for food if they could get away with it, is a productive path.

    You're the guy in that cartoon holding the book on politics, and you're so entirely lost that you don't even understand that it's mocking you.

    "That's what Slink gets for commenting around with those short one-line posts and wearing all of those liberal ideals."

    by JesseCW on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:21:16 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  It didn't look like "crawling" to me, in '08 (0+ / 0-)

      ...it was more like proudly "voting with our feet", by marching to the polls, to elect Obama and Democratic Majorities (such as they were), and kicking both the right, and a putative faux "left" to the curb, along the way.

      inauguration 2

      inauguration

      Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

      by Radical def on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:25:45 PM PDT

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      •  When staggering ignorance is revealed... (11+ / 0-)

        try to distract with shiny pictures!!!

        Well, it's a nice switch from the empty rhetoric that's poorly jointed together and obviously intended to do nothing but create more scroll space, in the hope that readers of the comments section will lose interest and leave.

        "That's what Slink gets for commenting around with those short one-line posts and wearing all of those liberal ideals."

        by JesseCW on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:34:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, the BWD School of Shiny Objects, apparently. (9+ / 0-)

          Well, at least the "debate" devolved into that, rather than going on with the obfuscating distortions and misinterpretations of early 20th c.-to-current left politics.

          Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbraith

          by Vtdblue on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:47:32 PM PDT

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        •  Right? Anything, CW, but an actual response (0+ / 0-)

          ...which you are obviously incapable of presenting, thus resorting to such mere bullshit dismissal, with no meat to it, whatsoever.

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:49:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Before trying to appropriate someone elses (6+ / 0-)

            history, I strongly suggest trying to learn a little about it.

            "That's what Slink gets for commenting around with those short one-line posts and wearing all of those liberal ideals."

            by JesseCW on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:58:01 PM PDT

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            •  I appropriate nothing, except dkos, from you, fool (0+ / 0-)

              You are the one who's freakin' stealing, bandwidth, you moronic parasite.  

              I at least clearly state my position, with no equivocation.

              You, on the other hand, clearly lied your ass off in clicking "Yes" on the ToS, just to gain access to the venue and troll us.

              You have no principles, and thus no right to speak to me about history, appropriation, or anything else, lol.  

              I only deign to speak to you because I enjoy watching you squirm and weasel, for everyone else to see.

              Photobucket

              Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

              by Radical def on Sun May 15, 2011 at 10:45:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Our discussions are conducted with (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                goinsouth, GiveNoQuarter, geomoo

                respect and argument. I have not hide-rated this series of personal attacks as we do not use hr's in these diaries unless there is very good reason. If discussions can not be conducted with respect and coherent argument they will not be allowed in this group; personal attacks and ad hominems are unacceptable. Participation in this series requires an understanding of this basic principle of human action. Leave these forms of attacks outside this group site.

                "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

                by NY brit expat on Mon May 16, 2011 at 08:22:08 AM PDT

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              •  There's nothing quite as satisfying and watching (0+ / 0-)

                someone scream "I am the champion"...

                into the canvas.

                "That's what Slink gets for commenting around with those short one-line posts and wearing all of those liberal ideals."

                by JesseCW on Sat May 21, 2011 at 05:30:53 AM PDT

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      •  Rec'd the first one. It went downhill from there. (12+ / 0-)

        You describe a problem not a solution:

        More likely, such subjective, opportunist, adventurist, oppositionalist, unprincipled hyperbolic rhetoric against the most popular president in generations, and the only party capable of blocking the right from power

        The politics of personality are perhaps the primary means of those in power for distracting the people from the looting.  Choosing to go with the flow in order to stick with the kinder, gentler version is nothing short of enabling.

        So many other confusions.  You would have us take our cues from the right:  if they are rabid, then it must be good.  This ignores that one of those changes between then and now is the saturation of the populace with the most sophisticated propaganda in history, willingly tuned in to for more than six hours a day for the average American.  The sputtering you refer to merely indicates that a demagogue on tv or radio told them lies to outrage them.

        Maldistribution of wealth has continued to worsen since 2008.  Perhaps HIR reform represents some redistibution, but probably not, once the insurance companies have played the system to the best of their ability.

        I would argue that the existence of propaganda is the primary reason so many people can watch a heist and consider it progress.  It's harder to know what's going on when we don't have to be riled up en masse in the street with racist speeches.

        So many other things, too, not least of which is how quickly the insults to the left emerged in your comments.  Unwittingly or not, you play your part in passive revolution with such language.

        To respond seriously to the part of your argument that is most respectable, I think it's a double bind.  One of the most effective sociological tactics for thwarting effective resistance is to place people in double binds.  Vote for Obama and watch the distribution of wealth continue to worsen or vote elsewhere or not at all and feel powerless.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  The most enjoyable part of double binds, for TPTB, is the subsequent mockery of the person who reacts either haplessly or hysterically to his impossible situation.

        So, I'm acknowledging that you could be right to vote for Obama.  I think you're wrong.  The question should hinge on to what extent Obama actually relieves the conditions of the poor and working classes and to what extent he simply says nicer things while doing nothing substantively different than McCain would have done.  To me, it is closer to the latter than the former.

        It is not a given that refusing to play a chump's game, thus forcing the threatened violence propping up the system to manifest, is a bad idea.  In fact, non-violent resistance rests precisely on this notion.

        Intelligent manipulation of the masses is the invisible government which is the true ruling power in our country. - U.S. propagandist Edward Bernays

        by geomoo on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:49:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And so...you would hand the power to fascism... (0+ / 2-)
          Recommended by:
          Hidden by:
          marina, GiveNoQuarter

          and the working class should not consider you a traitor to humanity, and a murderer....why?  

          Don't do us any freakin' favors, mmk?  

          And who's the chump, really?

          At least I don't harbor delusions about how fascism is somehow going to precipitate revolution, lol, especially after Hitler, Nixon, Reagan and Bush have so clearly demonstrated otherwise.

          The real double blind is in your own thinking, not mine.

          And in the contradictions of US capitalism, which asserts democracy as it's main claim to fame, and yet trembles at the very prospect, and even goes batshit insane when it actually begins to manifest, LOL.

          And, of course, never give in to the popular democratic will, right?  

          Just because unprecedented numbers of youth, and virtually all people of color voted for Obama, doesn't mean they actually agreed with his rhetoric, and wanted to block the right from power...they are just mindless sheep, right?  

          And the people you consider sooo stupid, should listen to you, and respect your craven contempt...why?

          As typical, you refer to the legislative products of a right wing majority in Congress, after '08, as "proof" of....what we can expect, only more so, after you would hand us over to the fascists?

          Your tendency seems to have no compunction about resorting to issues of personality, when vilifying and personally slandering Obama and "teh Dems", for being hostage to that right wing majority, and thus being severely constrained in all endeavors.

          Your logic is so faulty it would be ludicrous, if we weren't talking about the horrible suffering and death of millions of people, all over the world.

          The real insults to the left come from those who would taint us with the kind of shit-headed "analysis" that you bring, posturing and posing as "revolutionaries", when in fact, you are counter-revolutionary traitors, who actually think it will somehow be "good" for us, or "teach us a lesson" or some such misanthropic, jive, bullshit, contemptuous, elitist "rationale" for your own abject, pathetic surrender to fascism, and refusal to engage the enemy in the one arena he fears most, the electoral arena.

          That you can't seem to see the absolutely disgusting and contradictory implications of your line does not speak well for your intellect, or your motives, one...either you are a complete moron, or a duplicitous pig.

          Not that it really matters...the effect is the same...shit for brains.

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Sun May 15, 2011 at 10:21:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it seems that the hr's have come ... conduct (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlueDragon, geomoo

            yourself in a more appropriate manner in this site or do not come to this site. It is as simple as that ... you are not welcome here if you do act in this manner, insult people and use ad hominem attack in response. This is your third warning.

            "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

            by NY brit expat on Mon May 16, 2011 at 08:24:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's not 2008 anymore. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        willibro, Uberbah, Clarknt67, BlueDragon

        The hopium wore off a while ago, for a lot of us...

        AKA Big Tex *** If Barack Obama is the only adult in the room, then it must be his fault that the drapes are on fire and the cat's been shaved.

        by Maikeru Ronin on Sun May 15, 2011 at 09:17:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Pop stars get even bigger crowds. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        k9disc, NY brit expat
    •  I understand perfectly well, all about IWW (0+ / 0-)

      ...and recognize that their analysis of the many evils of capitalism, and the foibles of much of the "left", as well, heh, are more or less correct.  

      I, myself tend mostly toward anarcho communism, or syndicalism, personally, in terms of social, economic and political theory, and consider IWW art to be some of the most excellent agitprop, Evah.

      However, I do disagree with the persistence of official position of most such formations, of calling for electoral boycott.

      I'm no mindless ideologue, which might be hard for some "lefties" and "anarchists" to comprehend, LOL!

      Times and conditions change, and so thus, must theory and practice.  

      And who said anything about begging anyone for anything, lol?  

      I'm all for coercion, actually, and purging and suppressing the right...democratically, electorally, legislatively and judicially, of course...but also militarily, should that prove necessary.

      You tell me, what's most "reasonable", surrendering power to the most overt fascists available, by default, or tactically allying with the most viable material political forces available, to block them from power?

      And who do You think is really most likely to eat your freaking children, the fascists, or the liberal bourgeoisie, hmm?

      Photobucket

      Surely you don't mean to imply that Obama is a cannibal...or do you?

      Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

      by Radical def on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:47:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Bosses are one class. (10+ / 0-)

        Not two.

        You ain't in it.  The people in it don't care about you.

        If you haven't gotten that, you haven't gotten anything the IWW is about.

        Electoral Boycott or not (and, really, I'm not impressed that it took 25 minutes on Google to get that much of the joke) the point is that it's entirely impossibly to reform a corrupt system merely by picking between two options presented to you by the Bosses.

        As long as you give them a veto (and by only supporting candidates who can attract their donations, you do) there isn't any possibility of making actual progress.

        CEO Pay is up, and worker pay is down.  Real jobs are still fleeing our shores.  The rich still have their tax cuts.  Foreclosures are still at historical highs, and polluters are still getting off nearly Scott free.

        But, yeah.  A third Bush term would have been worse.

        So, if you think voting might be worthwhile if it helps to slightly slow our descent, well, I'll be inclined to agree with you.

        If you think it makes some huge difference whether the guy blowing Muslim children into gooey bits so he can look tough has an R or a D before his name, then we've got no basis for conversation.

        Ballots, in and of themselves, have never provided a drastic improvement in the lives of ordinary people in this country.   The Money Power has never given an inch of ground, except when frightened into believing that workers might otherwise stop or seize the engines of wealth.

        "That's what Slink gets for commenting around with those short one-line posts and wearing all of those liberal ideals."

        by JesseCW on Sun May 15, 2011 at 06:57:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If it took you 25 minutes to sus out IWW... (0+ / 0-)

          ...then you're even more ignorant than you seem.

          Look, I've said enough here, to convey my opinion of your perspective and most recent remarks, and virtually anything anyone else here is likely to say...most of which seems nothing but evasion and reiteration of standard rhetorical form...meh.

          Taking a break, since this is not my diary, to let you guys carry on with your mindless bloviating...will check back later to see if any further riposte is Even called for.

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Sun May 15, 2011 at 07:13:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  LMAO! (7+ / 0-)
        I, myself tend mostly toward anarcho communism, or syndicalism, personally, in terms of social, economic and political theory, and consider IWW art to be some of the most excellent agitprop, Evah.

        looks pretty hilarious after this:

        I'm all for coercion, actually, and purging and suppressing the right...democratically, electorally, legislatively and judicially, of course...but also militarily, should that prove necessary.

        So you're an "anarcho-Stalinist" now?

        "I'm not going against ten thousand years of Ferengi tradition." Quark, from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

        by Cassiodorus on Sun May 15, 2011 at 07:26:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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