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View Diary: Didya Hear? The Arab Spring Has Arrived in Palestine (116 comments)

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  •  Why don't the Israelis vote for leaders who (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poco, cville townie

    are interested in peace?

    I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

    by AoT on Wed May 18, 2011 at 04:18:11 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Are you serious? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1

      Why don't you ask why Palestinians vote for leaders who overtly make calls to genocide?

      Would you trust someone calling for your extermination?

      I love how it's always about Israel with you guys, while you blindly ignore what its enemies say, not to mention how they treat their own people, without exception.  Yet you think they will treat Jews better.

      Wake up!  Your question shows how far in fantasy you are.

      •  So you admit that electing people (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brecht, poco, heathlander, cville townie

        who don't want peace is a problem.  And yet you can't admit that it's a problem when Israel does it.  And it isn't that I make it about Israel, it almost always is about Israel when talking about Palestine.  Hamas didn't get elected because the majority of people wanted to destroy Israel, they got elected because they were the only party that seemed to be effective at all against Israel.  Not only that, but they have plenty distanced themselves from their position in their founding charter, they've even negotiated with Israel, indirectly albeit.

        I'm not going to defend the violent actions of Hamas, although some of them are, imho, justified in resistance to an occupation, but to pretend like they only exist to destroy Israel is simply absurd.  They do a hell of a lot more than just violent actions, and don't, or didn't at the time of the election, have nearly the same degree of corruption as Fatah.

        This is all besides the point.  The point is that by using these non-violent, or fairly non-violent, methods, Palestinians have a possibility of side-lining the violent faction.  In some respects this depends on how Israel reacts.  If they continue killing despite the use of non-violence I expect there will be little patience for the tactic.

        I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

        by AoT on Wed May 18, 2011 at 06:30:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Once again, fantasy (0+ / 0-)

          Good to see your nice words for Hamas.  You don't defend them, but you do.

          They are just a charitable folk, dedicated to human rights for all, while calling for extermination of Israel and Jews in the process.

          Like this, a week ago.

          Sidelining the violent faction, right!  FANTASY!

          And you wonder why Israel is on guard.

          •  They are not just a charitable folk (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco, cville townie

            And they do many reprehensible things.  I don't deny that, and never have.  And yet you continue to pretend that Hamas is the issue.  Why is it that you refuse to admit that Israel continues to elect governments that are opposed to real negotiations?  Israel continues to form governments that include parties that seek a "Greater Israel", that is, parties that want to see Palestine wiped from the map.

            Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinian people as worthy of a state.  The majority of people in Israel agree with the Rabbi that said Jews shouldn't rent housing to Arabs.  Yes, it is illegal to sell land to Jews in Palestine, but that's what happens when a Jewish state forcibly takes land from Palestinians, they get a little pissed about it.

            Or are you going to pretend like the suburbs(settlements really) encroaching on Palestinian land don't count as "real" land grabs because they are attached to other existing developments?

            Don't get the wrong idea here, what Israel is doing isn't some unique and special version of colonization, it just happens to be occurring with the massive support of the American government, with money that I give the American government.  So yeah, Israel is a bit of an issue.

            I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

            by AoT on Wed May 18, 2011 at 07:51:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would like Israel to be less aggressive... (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:
              cville townie

              in its security concerns, but it is fantasy to expect otherwise.  I don't live under the threat, either.  When people have started offensive wars and call for genocide, it does not lend itself to peace so long as they maintain their posture.

              Israel is not the reason there is no Palestinian state.  Why is that so hard to understand?  You maintain that Palestinians want real negotiations?  Do you really believe that?

              There is so much complaining about Israel, yet so little about the record of the Palestinians, which is far from a stellar toward its own people and others.  For example, renting to a Palestinian may be looked down on, but selling to Jews is a capital crime according to a PA court.  This, however, is not really a problem for many here, at least one may assume by the silence.

              Regarding the major settlements, there will clearly be a land swap if agreement is reached, so this is not really an issue to me, nor I think to most Palestinians that prosper from the economic activity or those that would prefer to live in Israel or under its authority.

              •  Again with the double standards (0+ / 0-)

                You speak as if Palestinians aren't under threat, despite the continuing encroachment of sometimes violent settlers.

                I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

                by AoT on Thu May 19, 2011 at 01:37:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Threats are relative... (0+ / 0-)

                  and losing a life is different than losing a house, would you not agree?

                  Your comparison does not address the concern of Jews who hear inciteful calls to genocide, and assumes that I support unlawful encroachment by settlers.

                  •  So Israel doesn't kill thousands more (0+ / 0-)

                    Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis?

                    Or do they just not count?

                    I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

                    by AoT on Thu May 19, 2011 at 02:27:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This is a different issue... (0+ / 0-)

                      and I am unsure of the numbers dead on each side.

                      Of course, we have to examine how these people died.  A dead civilian does not automatically mean there is an international crime.  

                      Nor does not relate to which side calls for genocide either.

                      I find it peculiar that you must create a linkage or equivalence when this matter stands completely on its own as a wrong.

                      I'll leave it at that.  We have exhausted the issue.

                      •  You brought up the issue of people being (0+ / 0-)

                        threatened.  I note that the Palestinians are being threatened.  You claim that they are only threatened with losing their homes.  I note that Israel has killed thousands of Palestinians, which I would certainly consider being a threat.  Then you hand wave about international law and "threats" of genocide and want to drop the issue.

                        I find it peculiar that you must create a linkage or equivalence when this matter stands completely on its own as a wrong.

                        Nothing in regards to Israel and Palestine stands completely alone, the two are linked regardless of what you may believe.

                        I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

                        by AoT on Thu May 19, 2011 at 03:16:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  Election results from the last (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      livosh1

      Palestinian election in 2006:

      January 25, 2006, elections were held for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). Notwithstanding the 2005 municipal elections and the January 9, 2005 presidential election, this was the first election to the PLC since 1996; subsequent elections had been repeatedly postponed due to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian voters in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem were eligible to participate in the election.

      Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own.

      Of the Electoral Lists, Hamas received 44.45% and Fatah 41.43%[1] and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%.[2]

      The Prime Minister, Ahmed Qurei, resigned, but at the request of President Mahmoud Abbas, remained as interim Prime Minister until February 19, when Hamas leader Ismail Haniya formed the new government. The Quartet threatened to cut funds to the Palestinian Authority following the elections.

      Who won that election. Why the party with this in their charter:

      Article 7 The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

      Article 22 The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.'[17]

      Article 32 Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.'

      Article 32 The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.')[14]

      You were saying???

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Wed May 18, 2011 at 05:09:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So that makes it right for Israel (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco, cville townie

        to refuse to pursue peace?

        I refuse to represent my political beliefs using numbers. It isn't accurate, nor is it helpful. But I'm around a -10 on both scales.

        by AoT on Wed May 18, 2011 at 06:31:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No... that simply fills in the blanks regarding (0+ / 0-)

          your silly question. Puts things in perspective so to speak. Is there a problem with pointing this fact out?

          DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

          by volleyboy1 on Wed May 18, 2011 at 09:19:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't bother with volleyboy (2+ / 0-)

          Hamas leaders and scholars of Hamas (for instance at those extremist outlets the US Institute for Peace and the US Army War College) have repeatedly pointed out that the Charter no longer guides their policy, and hasn't done for years, as is demonstrated by their actions. Hamas today all but accepts the two-state settlement, as even outlets like the Wall Street Journal have been forced to acknowledge. Certainly compared to Israel, which explicitly rejects a two-state settlement (see Netanyahu's speech the other day, or more importantly cf. Israel's actions on the ground), Hamas is a model peacemaker.

          At some point, you just have to decide: is it reasonable to ignore all the mainstream scholarly and news sources and justify Israeli violence and rejectionism on the basis of a few videos from MEMRI? Is it reasonable to infer everything about a group from the fact that some people associated with it say nasty things? Is that the sign of someone who is capable of serious discussion? If not, I wouldn't bother engaging.

          •  Sure they do!! (0+ / 0-)

            That's why the Hamas MP and Cleric, Yunis Al-Astal, on May 11, said on Hamas TV:

            The [Jews] are brought in droves to Palestine so that the Palestinians – and the Islamic nation behind them – will have the honor of annihilating the evil of this gang.

            […]

            All the predators, all the birds of prey, all the dangerous reptiles and insects, and all the lethal bacteria are far less dangerous than the Jews.

            […]

            In just a few years, all the Zionists and the settlers will realize that their arrival in Palestine was for the purpose of the great massacre, by means of which Allah wants to relieve humanity of their evil.

            […]

            When Palestine is liberated and its people return to it, and the entire region, with the grace of Allah, will have turned into the United States of Islam, the land of Palestine will become the capital of the Islamic Caliphate, and all these countries will turn into states within the Caliphate. When this happens, any Palestinian will be able to live anywhere, because the land of Islam is the property of all Muslims.

            Until this happens, we must reject all the resettlement plans, naturalization, or even reparations prior to the return of the refugees.

            http://www.memritv.org/...

            Do you reject MEMRI more than the filth put forth by this man?  Shall we deny what is clear in the message?  As if he is saying something else?  Why do you try to make people believe that Hamas believes what it steadfastly refuses to explicitly say?  Without MEMRI, fabrications about Hamas's benign intentions would stand uncontradicted.  How else would anyone know the extent of the Jew hatred that is communicated on Al-Aqsa TV?

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