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View Diary: Israel's 4 yr. Blockade of Gaza unravels as Egypt opens border crossing (223 comments)

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  •  The Second Intifada, 2000-2002 (6+ / 0-)

    How did the Palestinians respond to the Clinton/Rabin peace overtures of the late 1990s, again?  Refresh my memory.  Since this is a "siege by Israel" and all.  

    Anything?

    Pizza stores and school buses being blown up by the hundreds on Israeli streets?

    Anything?

    Bueller?

    •  The first Intifada. Largely non-violent. (13+ / 0-)

      How did Israel respond to it?

      That's all it takes, really...pressure and time.

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Thu May 26, 2011 at 07:58:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your missing the point, that international law (9+ / 0-)

      explicitly forbids collective punishment of people not direclty involved in these criminal, terrorist, or acts of war, however, you wish to define them.

      For example Timoty McVie (sp?) committed an atrocity, by blowing up the Federal building in Oklahoma, I believe.  Apparently, as an ardent Cathlic, he felt abortion was murder etc.

      We arrested him an put him in jail, which is the legal way to do it.

      If we had instead, rounded up all Catholics, anti-abortion advocates, and/or put a blockaide around his home state, and induced a collective punishment, to force them to find him and turn them over to the law, we could be in violation of law.

      And, we are not even an occupying power in this case.  The law is stricter, in the case of occuapation, than what a sovereign nation can do to it's own people.

      This is just one example, of the kinds of perspective, I believe leads many progressive Democrats, and members of the J-Street Jewish communities, to challenge Prime Minister Netanyahu, and his Likud-Shas coalition, even while we profess to support Israel.  This confuses some folks, but, part of the hidden resolution of the seeming mystery is that we are concerned about what this prolonged conflict is doing to our own values, and the priciples of international rule-of-law around the world.

      Both, the US and Israel are becoming more isolated from the rest of the world on these issues.

      Which is playing into the hands of violent extremist in this case.

      Otherwise, few would listen to them.

      This is the other notable aspect of collective punishment WinSmith, it almost never works.  And, in fact, usually produces exactly the opposite consequence than desired by the occupying force.

      Egypt today, announced the end of the Gaza blockage.

      Not only did we not displace Hamas, but Israel has serious damaged, if not lost, it's relationship with Turkey, and has created enough ill will in Europe that many are seriously considering voting for a unilateral UN recognition of Palestine.

      Thes sentiment did not just magically appear.  It is the direct causal consequence of choices and actions by the players in the system.

      Netanyahu shot himself in the foot here.  (I know it was more than Netanyahu, but I am trying to no confuse anyone about the fact, that I am speaking of someone who is pro-Israel, and believe a J-Street - Progressive Democratic approach to this challenge of peace, and the two-state solution, would be better for Israel's national security, than the Netanyahu approach. )

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Thu May 26, 2011 at 08:14:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Second Intifada (7+ / 0-)

        The Second Intifada was a systemic response by Arafat and the Palestinian people to send hundreds of suicide bombers onto the streets of Israel to kill innocent women and children, to shut down Israeli society under waves of terror, and force Israel to acquiesce to Palestinian demands.

        The notion that Israel just up and started bombing Palestine in the 00s, because they like to kill people, is ludicrous.

        "Collective Punishment" is in the eye of the beholder.  What the Second Intifada did to the people of Israel was traumatic on a level that 9/11 doesn't even come close to comparing to.  

        Imagine the fear of riding a bus.  Or sending your kids to school, only to find a Palestinian dipped nails in rat poison and set off a bomb on his belt sending those nails into the skulls of school children.

        I can't stand Netanyahu.  I support Obama's push for the '67 borders.

        But when I read these ludicrous diaries about how Israel is some evil empire and the Palesstinians a band of tortured innocents, it's as puke inducing as any propaganda from the right about how Islam is a "religion of evil."

        Stop with the cartoons already.

        •  I believe you are wrong WinSmith (4+ / 0-)
          "Collective Punishment" is in the eye of the beholder.  What the Second Intifada did to the people of Israel was traumatic on a level that 9/11 doesn't even come close to comparing to.  

          The law is the law.  The people being collectively punished in Gaza did note directly launch the Second Intifada, and no international legal proceedings, with due process, have found as such.

          So, regardless, of your, or mine feelings about whatever trauma Israel feels about it, does not warrant violations of international law.

          As, a Democrat here, I pressume you joined us in denouncing President Bush going to war against Iraq, citing our injuries in 9/11 as the "Causes Bellus."  

          This was totally bogus, and I denouced it as well.  

          Supposed OBL had not only taken down the Twin Towers, but vaporized all of Manhatten.  Would you by the same logic support us vaporizing, not only Iraq, but perhap, Iran, Egypt, Palestine, and any other country that had not sufficiently denounced OBL in Bush's eyes?

          No, those would be war crimes.

          The fact, that Israelis have sufferred, and been unjustly killed is terrible, and sad.  But, it does not legitimize taking the illegal actions of collective punishment in Gaza.

          And, taking those actions, although, they seemed to have made you feel better, seem not to have advanced the cause of Israel's security, in any way.  In fact, I cited, the loss of Turkey as an allies, and the radicalization, increase in the perceived legitimacy of the extremists jihadist, in the eyes of many Arab youth, as counter-examples.

          It didnt' work, it wasn't legal, smart, or effective.  

          Finding it to be frustrating doesn't legitimize lashing out.

          Wiser strategy that accomplishes positive goals is a better approach.  With the whole world watching, and 190 countries having a vote in the UN General Assembly, it is worthwhile pretending, at least, that we support international law, as represented in the Geneva Conventions even if sadly, we all do not appreciate it, or support it.

          My understanding is that 112 countries have already announced intention of supporting the recognition of Palestine as a member state.

          And, further, while, I may be wrong, as there are contradicitory writings on this, with 150 countries, which they are expected to get, the General Assembly can override the US Secruity Council Veto, in an emergency session under Article 377.

          Let's be Machievellian about this, at least, of legal arguments, don't sway you.  

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Thu May 26, 2011 at 08:48:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Collective Punishment is well-defined (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica

          It is a punishment that applies to people regardless of guilt.

          There are plenty of people in Gaza who are suffering despite having no role in the Second Intifada.

          Imagine the fear of riding a bus.  Or sending your kids to school, only to find a Palestinian dipped nails in rat poison and set off a bomb on his belt sending those nails into the skulls of school children.
          That's awful, but it doesn't justify killing other schoolchildren.

          Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

          by The Red Pen on Thu May 26, 2011 at 10:29:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gaza is 30+% children. nt (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Red Pen, poco

            "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

            by Terra Mystica on Thu May 26, 2011 at 02:12:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  No, it is Israeli Security Measures (0+ / 0-)

            By limiting imports and border access, Israel has reduced the amount of missiles being shot into Israel from Gaza, and reduced the amount of suicide bombings on the streets of Israel.

            Is this "collective punishment" of Palestinians or "Security Measures for Israel"?  Depends on your point of view.

            Ask yourself this:

            Since Israel began bombing the West Bank in 2003-2004, did suicide bombings increase or decrease?

            When Israel closed the borders and bombed Gaza in 2008, did missile attacks increase or decrease?

            You say "Punishment."  But Israel has received far fewer suicide bombers and missile attacks since the actions they took, so clearly a self-preservation defense is plausible, too.

            •  Indian attacks are way down (0+ / 0-)

              America used to have a problem with Native Americans attacking settlers.

              Now we don't have one.

              I guess that makes our solution OK.

              Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

              by The Red Pen on Thu May 26, 2011 at 05:15:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm glad you justify terrorism (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1

                The thousands of Israeli civilians blown up by Palestinian terrorists will be pleased to know that you find that sort of response a justifiable reaction to occupation.

                Although Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mendela might disagree with you.

                There are other strategies to occupation/repression.  They don't involve nail bombs exploding by Israeli schoolyards.

                •  Do you believe that only Israel has (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poco

                  the right to defend itself?  That everybody else should allow their country to be trampled on?

                  ....at a table with 12 cookies. The CEO takes 11 and says to the Tea Partier: "Keep an eye on that union guy, he wants your cookie." Ari Paul 'The US: Waking up to class politics' Al Jazeera

                  by weltshmertz on Thu May 26, 2011 at 08:19:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Don't put words in my mouth (0+ / 0-)

                  Collective punishment is well-defined.

                  It is immoral.

                  Condemning it is not "justifying terrorism," idiot.

                  Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                  by The Red Pen on Fri May 27, 2011 at 08:58:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No it isn't (0+ / 0-)

                    One political leader's "punishment" is another political leader's "pre-emptive defense."

                    Given the nature of terrorism Israel experienced from waves of suicide bombers and missiles fired from Gaza for years, your argument that this is some clear cut case is ludicrous.

                    Maybe to you, it is.  I suggest you are talking out of your proverbial ass unless you've lived in Israel yourself and know what it's like to be afraid to send your kids to school on a public bus.

            •  I say it again. What have restrictions on spices (0+ / 0-)

              and such whchi were imposed got to do with missiles. Cinnamon CANNOT be mistaken for a weapon. Food cannot be mistaken for a weapon.

    •  No GG article at Salon to troll today? (0+ / 0-)

      "It's hard to explain to someone that they are unimportant when it comes to presidential priorities, yet critically important when it comes to showing up at the polls." Dr. Boyce Watkins

      by Uberbah on Thu May 26, 2011 at 09:33:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Was that the one where the Israelis started it by (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lefty Coaster, peggy, Terra Mystica

      marching on the Dome of the Roc and defiling the Muslim holy site in a show of naked power?  I think it was Sharon who led the way, but I'm rusty on some of the names.

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