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View Diary: Desmond Tutu: "God Is Not A Christian" (87 comments)

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  •  "Great spiritual leader" (0+ / 0-)

    Bull shit.

    You need a "great spirit" before you have a "great spiritual leader" and no one has demonstrated that there is any kind of a "great spirit."

    Whatever Desmond Tutu has done that is worthy of praise must be balanced against the fact that religion generally displaces reason. Unfortunately Tutu promotes religion.

    Now if Desmond Tutu were to announce to the world that this "God thing" was all a grand joke and humanity should get about its business without imploring the aid a divinity, then I would agree that he was a great "Spiritual leader."

    God is the problem, not the solution.

    by Sam Wise Gingy on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 09:20:18 AM PDT

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    •  You fetishize something (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mallyroyal, Darmok, DvCM, terabthia2

      you call "reason."  Interesting cult belief.  Is it formal logic you deify?  

      Frankly, the ethos of your comments is anger and superiority, arrogance.  

      Your comments give "reason" a bad name.  That's a  shame, because evidence and logic are useful.

      CitizenX: "If the republicans were in charge GM & Chrysler would be dead and Osama bin Laden would be alive."

      by TomP on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 09:54:45 AM PDT

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      •  Let's see (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        supercereal

        Religion = belief, superstition, tradition, holy books, myths
        Reason = understanding, science, learning, knowledge, technology

        Would you explain the advances of knowledge and technology which have resulted in numerous "blessings" to humanity and tell me which of those advances was due to religion and not reason.

        God is the problem, not the solution.

        by Sam Wise Gingy on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:04:54 AM PDT

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        •  Sammy, sweety... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, DvCM, terabthia2

          That is for you to disprove since you're the one proclaiming that religion hasn't contributed to anything.

          You're not more smarter, more enlightened, or more reasonable because you choose not to believe in a god.  And to assume that religion had nothing to do with what you think reason is just shows your ignorance in all things.

          "Jesus, does President Obama start anything on time anymore? It's like being in a club and waiting for Lauryn Hill show to being."- The Rude Pundit live-whiskey blogging Obama's Big Damn Middle East Policy

          by lcj98 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:17:58 AM PDT

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          •  Those who criticize religion are immoral (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            supercereal

            right.

            If you attack religion there is something wrong with you, right?

            If you want to tell me my attacks against religion are unfounded then go for it.

            If you want to tell me I am wrong to attack religion then all I say is that I don't think so.

            I guess I wouldn't be any smarter if I "chose to believe" that pi is approximately 3.14 but all the evidence suggests as much.

            I am more progressive and I serve progressive causes more by advocating for reason against religion. At least Thomas Paine thought so, and I agree with him.

            God is the problem, not the solution.

            by Sam Wise Gingy on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:35:22 AM PDT

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            •  No... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HamdenRice, TomP, DvCM, terabthia2

              if you attack religion for no real reason other than "you're stupid because you believe in a god", then something is wrong with you.  Because it's you that has the problem with religion, not the people who follows a religion...

              Cupcake, I don't give a damn what you choose to or not to believe, that your business.  However, if you go around and stay stupid shit like "religion retards the mind", people will come up and slap you down.  And your brand of "progressiveness" is being a bigoted, arrogant, ignorant ass, which I'm glad I zero interest in.  

              "Jesus, does President Obama start anything on time anymore? It's like being in a club and waiting for Lauryn Hill show to being."- The Rude Pundit live-whiskey blogging Obama's Big Damn Middle East Policy

              by lcj98 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 11:08:57 AM PDT

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          •  No the burden of proof is on you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            supercereal

            because you makes assertions contrary to natural law.

            If you wish to assert that a deity is doing anything that is relevant to humanity then you are obligated to say exactly what that action or actions were/was and how it can be verified. Otherwise your claim is irrational.

            God is the problem, not the solution.

            by Sam Wise Gingy on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 12:00:22 PM PDT

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        •  Life is more than (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          husl piper 11, DvCM

          material objects.

          You fail to see the poetry of life.  Humans may well create religions, but I'm okay with that.

          Have fun in your debate.  The funny thing is I do not believe in a deity who intervenes in history, but I find many people who do to have more heart and mind than what you offer.

          You attack all religions and spritual beliefs, but offer little to attract others.

          One can live a very moral and fulfilling life without a belief in a deity.   Pinker and Dawkins see beauty in the universe and explanation of much in evolution.

          Others, however, find meaning in belief systems that may or may not have deities.

          Ego and compassion seem to conflict.

          I was an atheist from age 12 on.  Now I;'m a Christian/Buddhist/ atheist/agnostic, depending on how I feel that day.  

          Certainly many of the philosophic arguments for the existence of God are unconvincing. (Anslem, Aquinas, etc.)  But that's not the whole story.  William James had intersting things to say on the Varieties of Religious Experience and on The Will to Believe.   And tehre are many other outlooks also.

          I'm fine with you believing what you do.  Why can you not accept that others may have their own beliefs?  

          In any event, regardless of differences, I hoep you vote for Democrats.

           

          CitizenX: "If the republicans were in charge GM & Chrysler would be dead and Osama bin Laden would be alive."

          by TomP on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:22:14 AM PDT

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      •  you come to the same conclusion about (SOME) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, DvCM

        atheists I do.  

        "Wake the town and tell the people!" ~Ewart Beckford, O.D.

        by mallyroyal on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:11:08 AM PDT

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    •  That's right... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, DvCM

      Reason is wholly exclusive to non-religious thinkers.  Religion never had anything to do with social justice, science, math and philosophy.

      "Jesus, does President Obama start anything on time anymore? It's like being in a club and waiting for Lauryn Hill show to being."- The Rude Pundit live-whiskey blogging Obama's Big Damn Middle East Policy

      by lcj98 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:02:55 AM PDT

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      •  Correct. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        supercereal

        Yeah. Believing in angels, demons, heaven, hell, holy men, holy books and all of that shit tended to retard minds. Go figure.

        Religion tended to deify the status quo in terms of wealth and political powers. The Levelers and enlightened thinkers tended to be heretics.

        Men Women of science tend to be menwomen of reason, not religion and the trend has growing stronger.

        Given that public defiance of the Church meant death you can not claim the heritage of faith as the heritage of science.

        If the church had not held men of learning in terror then you might make a case for the contribution of religion to science. But the bulk of evidence supports the conclusion that the church of old suppressed reason and science as much of the religious in our time do as well.

        God is the problem, not the solution.

        by Sam Wise Gingy on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:13:33 AM PDT

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        •  List of people who might disagree with you (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, mallyroyal, DvCM, terabthia2

          Thomas Jefferson
          Fredrick Douglass
          Ghandi
          Sir Issac Newton
          Albert Einstein
          Galileo
          Harriett Tubman
          Abraham Lincoln
          Prince Consort Albert
          Copernicus
          Socrates
          Plato
          Descarte
          Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr
          Malcolm X
          Michaelanglo

          Tell which one of these people had a their minds retarded because of religion.

          "Jesus, does President Obama start anything on time anymore? It's like being in a club and waiting for Lauryn Hill show to being."- The Rude Pundit live-whiskey blogging Obama's Big Damn Middle East Policy

          by lcj98 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 10:40:58 AM PDT

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          •  Are you kidding? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP

            Jefferson, Einstein, Lincoln, Socrates, and Plato we in no sense thiests or Christian. Jefferson extolled reason to the same degree I do. Jefferson gave our country the first secular university. If Jefferson valued faith then why would he want to exclude the Church from higher education.

            Douglass defined Christianity contrary to the Bible and as such asserted reason over religion. As a slave Douglass had no power to resist his religious indoctrination.

            Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, Michaelangelo lived in an age of extreme oppression so we no way of knowing what they truly believed much less what they would have believed if they were free to believe according to a free conscious.

            Galileo and Copernicus made their contributions in spite of the Church not because of the Church and religion. For every man like Galileo there were hundreds or thousands of other churchmen who condemned them and their work. Those men who counter science and reason were organized, funded and empowered by the Church and religion.

            Ghandi, Tubman, Malcolm X were indeed religious people who did good things. I never said religious people couldn't do good things. I said religion retards reason. You have not presented any evidence that it doesn't.

            For every clergy man that you can name that has advanced society and I could name a hundred or perhaps a thousand that has pulled it back. Pat Roberson has had as much more influence on our time as Malcolm X did on his and there are legions of Pat Robertsons and relatively few Malcolm X's

            Paine
            Darwin
            Hawkins
            Dawkins
            Harris

            and other pioneers of science tend to be none believers. As none believers tend to make up a relatively small portion of the general population and the majority of the scientific community that suggests that disbelief is as asset to reason.

            My list is longer than your list, if I took the time to make one and reason has only had a century or two.

            Again tell me what advance came about because of religion and revelation in the last 200 years.

            God is the problem, not the solution.

            by Sam Wise Gingy on Thu Jun 02, 2011 at 11:55:19 AM PDT

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            •  Fair comment. (0+ / 0-)

              Interesting discussion.  Take care.

              Both of us likely would havve been burn at the stake years ago.  :-)

              CitizenX: "If the republicans were in charge GM & Chrysler would be dead and Osama bin Laden would be alive."

              by TomP on Fri Jun 03, 2011 at 07:16:14 AM PDT

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    •  Hoo Boy! Here We F$@%^#g Go Again! (0+ / 0-)

      This is a dairy about the life and philosophy of a very estimable person, and someone wants to crank the discussion around to minimize his contributions because of his religious beliefs and argue that all religions are false, idiotic, illogical, useless, offensive to the world, the bane of his/her existence (pick any three.)  Is this going to develop into a permanent DK meme?  The quotes the diarist used reflect Bishop Tutu's personal beliefs and are, at the least, pretty inoffensive.

      The greatest attributes of Bishop Tutu are his courage and his humanity -- his courage in the face of apartheid and his humanity in his inclusiveness, humility, and compassion.  To the degree that he inspires that in others, he is a great leader spiritual or otherwise.  If you want to convince the DK readership at large all religions are false, idiotic, illogical, useless, offensive to the world, the bane of your existence (pick any three,) consolidate your philosophy, summon up your arguments, and write a diary.

      "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything even remotely true." -- H. Simpson

      by midnight lurker on Fri Jun 03, 2011 at 11:40:27 AM PDT

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