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View Diary: Would a little American nuclear emergency make you look up? We're having one (225 comments)

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  •  All the active Fukushima reactors were scrammed. (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    lostboyjim, OllieGarkey
    Hidden by:
    Radical def

    Takes all of 4 seconds to get the control rods dropped.

    About a minute for heat production to drop to the lower level, so's the passive cooling system can take care of things. (You don't need to use the cooling tower any more.)

    Talking about FNPP as though the reactors hadn't been scrammed -- par for the course with media whores.

    "We could have lost northern Japan !!"

    OMG... &^%$#$%^&)(&^%$#$%^&.......

    Angry White Males + Crooks + Personality Disorder psychos + KKKwannabes + "Unborn Child" church folk =EQ= The Republicans

    by vets74 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 05:54:37 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  What I fear most is a tornado hitting one (10+ / 0-)

      From what I have read there doesn't seem to be any reactors designed to withstand a Cat 5 tornado... the ones with 200+ mph winds that suck the asphalt off the roads and the bark off the trees leaving nothing but bare dirt behind in their path.

      We've seen a record number of these storms this year and the season isn't over yet. One of those monsters cracks a containment vessel and you'd have mother natures instant dirty bomb!

      •  Compare what happened to Topeka, Kansas. (8+ / 0-)

        The State Capital was bulls eyed in 1966. F5 a mile wide.

        Howsomeever.... tearing up a containment building is not the same as tearing up the sheet metal outer weather building. The containment, itself, is built to take 200 m.p.h. winds and much more.

        A full service tornado shelter isn't half the strength of a containment.

        Angry White Males + Crooks + Personality Disorder psychos + KKKwannabes + "Unborn Child" church folk =EQ= The Republicans

        by vets74 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 06:23:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Browns Ferry suffered (12+ / 0-)

          a loss of offsite power 'event' the day the monster twisters roared through Tuscaloosa and Birmingham. They scrammed, but lost full cooling and circulation pumps for a bit (a backup EDG was offline) and unit 1 overheated. They got it controlled within a few days and were never completely without EDGs, but only one unit is back on line at this point.

          Had the tornado blown away the flimsy secondary containments and trashed the EDGs as well as cut offsite power, they could melt as easily and as quickly as Fukushima's reactors did.

          Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

          by Joieau on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 07:16:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Secondary containments... (10+ / 0-)

            ... and storage of high-level waste in pools outside the plants is the real disaster waiting to happen.

            High-level nuke waste is the most toxic crap on the planet.  One speck of plutonium a few microns across finds its way into your lung tissue, and you will die.  No doubt about it.

            There are 300,000+ tons of this stuff in the world, with a half-life of 50,000-1 million years.

            Probability approaches 100 percent that every single nuke plant in the world will be the site of a major catastrophe at some point.

            When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

            by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 09:22:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, no (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              vets74
              One speck of plutonium a few microns across finds its way into your lung tissue, and you will die.  No doubt about it.

              This is a lie that Nader made up at one point. While you certainly wouldn't want to around snorting the stuff, The idea that a single microscopic particle will kill you is given the lie by the fact that all of us, especially those in my generation, have measureable amounts of Plutonium in our bodies, thanks to open air nuclear testing.

              And quoting everyone's favorite source:

              The U.S. Department of Energy estimates that the lifetime cancer risk from inhaling 5,000 plutonium particles, each about 3 microns wide, to be 1% over the background U.S. average

              The reality is that stuff like radio-strontium pose a much greater health risk that plutonium.

              •  3 microns? (0+ / 0-)

                How about 30 microns, still too small to see with the naked eye?

                And as you point out, Pu is just one of a whole smorgasbord of highly radioctive, million-year goodness we're dumping on future generations.

                When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

                by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 11:27:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Let me explain... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... a particle 3 microns across would emit enough particles that the body could safely absorb them.

                  ... a particle 30 microns across would emit roughly 4/3*Π(27*27*27) more radiation than a 3 micron particle -- a hell of a lot more.  Could the body safely absorb this in one shot?

                  When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

                  by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 11:38:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, your math is off (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    vets74

                    Scaling by a factor of 10 means that the volume goes up by a factor of 1000, and assuming that emissions are proportional to volume,  that would still be within the limit of my quote.

                    I don't argue that there is no risk involved. The only point I was making is that hysterical (and easily disproved) lies such as:

                    One speck of plutonium a few microns across finds its way into your lung tissue, and you will die.  No doubt about it.

                    Do nothing to make your case.

                    In terms of relative risk, plutonium is relatively low on the scale, especially since it is not absorbed through the digestive system, unlike iodine, cesium, strontium .....

                    •  No, your math is off (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Flint

                      Assuming the particle was a sphere, it would not be a simple matter of scaling by 10.  In fact, even if it were a perfectly flat square it would not be a matter of scaling by 10.

                      a square of 2x2 is 4 sq ft.
                      a square of 20x20 is 400 sq ft.

                      See how that works?

                      Using standard calculations for  a spherical particle 30 microns in diameter would have ~82,000 more volume than a spherical particle of 3 microns in diameter.

                      Do the math.

                      When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

                      by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 01:03:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  OK, I will (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        vets74

                        A spherical particle 3 microns in diameter has a volume of

                        4/3*pi* (1.5)^3 = 14.137 cubic microns.

                        A spherical particl 30 microns in diameter has a volume of

                        4/3*pi* (15)^3 = 14137 cubic microns.

                        looking at the ratio we have 14137/14.137 = 1000

                        More generally, if you have a sphere or radius r, and you scale it up by a factor f so the new radius is f*r then the ratio of the volumes is (using ^ to indicate exponentiation)

                        4/3*pi*(r*f)^3      4/3*pi*(r^3) * (f^3)
                        -------------------- = -------------------------
                        4/3*pi*r^3             4/3*pi*(r^3)

                        The 4*3*pi*(r^3) terms cancel and you're left with the ratio being
                           f^3

                        so the volume increases as the 3rd power of the scale factor.

                        and what does this staement mean:

                        a square of 2x2 is 4 sq ft.
                        a square of 20x20 is 400 sq ft.

                        See how that works?

                        We we talking about volumes, and you have this strange example involving areas. And your example shows quite clearly that when you scale an object the area goes up as the 2nd power of the scale factor, and as I just showed, volume goes up by the 3rd power. This is high school geometry stuff.

                        •  right (0+ / 0-)

                          So a number to the 3rd power is a lot bigger than a number to the second power.

                          ANyway, the point is that a particle of 30 microns in diameter has significantly more volume/radiation than one of 3 microns in diameter.  

                          When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

                          by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 01:34:39 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  but (0+ / 0-)
                            ANyway, the point is that a particle of 30 microns in diameter has significantly more volume/radiation than one of 3 microns in diameter.  

                            We never denied that. It's just that it's no where near as big as the numbers you keep making up. It is, in fact, 1000 times bigger.

                        •  You knew he was kidding himself (0+ / 0-)

                          when you saw the math error.

                          These guys don't know jack. And they don't care.

                          Ignorance and apathy... or just shills like the pack out of Leadership Institute.

                          Angry White Males + Crooks + Personality Disorder psychos + KKKwannabes + "Unborn Child" church folk =EQ= The Republicans

                          by vets74 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 05:53:01 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Ooops! (0+ / 0-)

                        My math was off a bit, it's actually "only" ~10,275 times the volume.  My bad, but still more radiation than you would want to absorb in one shot.

                        When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

                        by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 01:31:48 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Where the hell (0+ / 0-)

                          did 10,275 come from. I've shown you my calcs, now show me yours.

                          •  misplaced a decimal (0+ / 0-)

                            it's 1027 times the volume, close to your calculation.  I'm multiplying by 3.1459, not 3.14.

                            Even if my calculations were off, my point stands: there are plenty of 30 micron particles of plutonium out there, and you would not want to inhale one.  It's worse than disingenuous to say, "Well, you could inhale 5,000 3 micron particles..." in an effort to make Pu seem innocuous when it is, in fact, highly toxic.

                            When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace. - Jimi Hendrix

                            by CharlieHipHop on Wed Jun 08, 2011 at 05:17:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Why do the math when you can just google it? (0+ / 0-)
                        The large number of deaths and other health problems associated with particulate pollution was first demonstrated in the early 1970s [6] and has been reproduced many times since. PM pollution is estimated to cause 22,000-52,000 deaths per year in the United States (from 2000)[7] and 200,000 deaths per year in Europe.
                        The effects of inhaling particulate matter that have been widely studied in humans and animals now include asthma, lung cancer, cardiovascular issues, birth defects, and premature death. The size of the particle is a main determinant of where in the respiratory tract the particle will come to rest when inhaled. Because of their small size, particles on the order of ~10 micrometers or less (PM10) can penetrate the deepest part of the lungs such as the bronchioles or alveoli.[8] Larger particles are generally filtered in the nose and throat via cilia and mucus, but particulate matter smaller than about 10 micrometers, referred to as PM10, can settle in the bronchi and lungs and cause health problems. The 10 micrometer size does not represent a strict boundary between respirable and non-respirable particles, but has been agreed upon for monitoring of airborne particulate matter by most regulatory agencies. Similarly, particles smaller than 2.5 micrometers, PM2.5, tend to penetrate into the gas exchange regions of the lung, and very small particles (< 100 nanometers) may pass through the lungs to affect other organs. In particular, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association indicates that PM2.5 leads to high plaque deposits in arteries, causing vascular inflammation and atherosclerosis — a hardening of the arteries that reduces elasticity, which can lead to heart attacks and other cardiovascular problems.[9] Researchers suggest that even short-term exposure at elevated concentrations could significantly contribute to heart disease. A study in The Lancet concluded that traffic exhaust is the single most serious preventable cause of heart attack in the general public, the cause of 7.4% of all attacks.[10]

                        link

                        Your 30 micrometer particle of doom isn't going to hang around in your lungs very long.

              •  Always trust the DOE (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Adept2u, Flint

                They would never lie to us. And the thing about plutonium isn't just a Nader squawk. It's pretty clearly understood to be the deadliest substance on earth.  Strontium-90 in the milk in the 50s hasn't killed me yet but I'll take a pass on the plutonium--in any amount.

                "And that's the way it is." --Walter Cronkite

                by Barnaby Grudge on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 07:56:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Not being a nuclear physicist, biologist, etc... (5+ / 0-)

              Photobucket

              I can only opt for the cautions, at this time.

              When a large majority of independent ecologists and biologists, etc. say it's "safe" I'd be eager to reconsider.

              But that doesn't seem to be the case, presently, so it should all be shut down and decommissioned, with any other major funding going to how to deal with the waste.

              Photobucket

              At the same time, a war effort economy of scale, like putting solar on virtually every roof of every structure, everywhere, and all other appropriate applications of alternative tech, putting everyone back to work.

              The green option has been clearly shown both feasible and viable, but it requires comprehensive, all-out commitment and implementation, for optimal results.

              It will shift international markets, compelling emulative competition, defusing international tensions, for justice and peace, to save the planet...

              Photobucket

              What's not to like about it?

              Intransigent, recalicatrant defense of the nukes is...illogical.

              Photobucket

              Which makes it suspect.

              Photobucket

               

              Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

              by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 12:42:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Love it! Thanks for the fun pics & GREAT IDEAS! (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Flint, Radical def, marina

                Meanwhile... We must sadly go back to our ongoing nuke catastrophe of the day...

                How Low Doses Of Radiation Can Cause Heart Disease And Stroke, ScienceDaily, October 23, 2009:

                A mathematical model constructed by researchers at Imperial College London predicts the risk of cardiovascular disease (heart attacks, stroke) associated with low background levels of radiation. The model shows that the risk would vary almost in proportion with dose.

                Results, published October 23 in the open-access journal PLoS Computational Biology, are consistent with risk levels reported in previous studies involving nuclear workers. [...]
                http://enenews.com/...

                Melted Fuel at Fukushima May Have Leaked Through, Yomiuri Says, Bloomberg by Go Onomitsu, June 7, 2011:

                [...] The Japanese government will submit a report to the International Atomic Energy Agency that raises the possibility the fuel dropped through the bottom of the pressure vessels [of the Nos. 1 to 3 reactors], a situation described as a “melt through” and considered more serious than a “meltdown,” [...]
                http://enenews.com/...

                Plutonium found near Fukushima shows nuclear “crisis is far from over”, Yahoo by Laura Rozen, June 6, 2011:

                [...] There are several other ongoing concerns at Fukushima some three months after the natural disasters hit, according to arms control expert Joe Cirincione of the Ploughshares Fund.

                Among them, he said: [...] the very serious possibility that the molten fuel now pooled at the bottom of the reactors could start nuclear reactions again.

                “This crisis is far from over,” said Cirincione. “Recent readings show that the radiation levels are the highest they have ever been (and) the plutonium detected in the soil show radioactive particulates continue to spew from the reactors.”
                http://enenews.com/...

                Japan Concedes Severity of Blast, Wall Street Journal, June 7, 2011:

                Tokyo’s nuclear regulator revealed an apparent leak in the lid of Reactor No. 2′s containment vessel. That container was a crucial barrier between the overheating nuclear fuel rods at the reactor and the outside world, and the new information suggests radioactive substances were surging through holes that were collectively the size of a business card.

                http://enenews.com/...

        •  the containment vessel might survive (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Russgirl, Adept2u, CharlieHipHop, Flint

          but everything else would get shredded.  How would your powerlines do?  How would your back up generators do?  How much piping and other balance of plant would be destroyed or damaged?

          “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

          by Earth Ling on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 07:47:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A scrammed nuke only needs to get water. (0+ / 0-)

            There is no need for a cooling tower, working or not, or the vast water-circulation system that connects a reactor with a cooling tower.

            The most of the anti-nuke comments are set on demanding that these reactors did not get scrammed, that a full meltdown occurred, and that TEPCO and the Japanese government are incompetent liars.

            Crazy stuff. If not paid shillery, crazy. Similar to the fantasy that there were 50 TEPCO employees onsite who were all going to die from radiation poisoning.

            Angry White Males + Crooks + Personality Disorder psychos + KKKwannabes + "Unborn Child" church folk =EQ= The Republicans

            by vets74 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 09:56:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Crazy stuff. If not paid shillery, crazy. Yup. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Flint, Adept2u

              But if after the scram everything was so safe, how did we get the fuel melting inside the reactors in 3 of the units, and why was there so much concern about the heat and then fire in the spent fuel pools?  

              The fuel from a SCRAMed reactor needs cooling for years.  

              That's why they have spent fuel pools.

              We'd rather dream the American Dream than fight to live it or to give it to our kids. What a shame. What an awful, awful shame.

              by Into The Woods on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 05:42:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I was waiting for someone to point this out... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Adept2u

                The Fukushima reactors were scrammed immediately but it didn't seem to have stopped the disaster for exactly the reasons you point out.

                Also, notice the "paid shill" charge being repeated over and over by guess who. A standard wingnut trick is to accuse their opposition of exactly what they are doing.  

        •  is it also built to take the tree and truck (6+ / 0-)

          that it picked up and threw at the power plant?

          •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

            But not a daisy cutter.

            Angry White Males + Crooks + Personality Disorder psychos + KKKwannabes + "Unborn Child" church folk =EQ= The Republicans

            by vets74 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 09:58:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Probably not... (0+ / 0-)

              A 737 neither!

            •  Not according the the studies I've read. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Flint, Adept2u

              The missles that could be produced by a tornado might not penetrate the reactor or reactor containment structures, but the spent fuel pools are not designed or built for that kind of hit.

              We'd rather dream the American Dream than fight to live it or to give it to our kids. What a shame. What an awful, awful shame.

              by Into The Woods on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 05:44:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You have raised the issue of security (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u, marina

              Albeit inadvertently...

              What has bothered me most about Fukushima's disaster is that it shows how even the destruction of external support systems like the generators and additional cooling water systems can create a nightmare scenario!

              Major Security Breach at Palisades Nuclear Plant
              Critics Call for U.S. Congressional Investigations

              May 15, 2007

              Excerpt:

              "Mercenary" reveals that officials at the Palisades nuclear power plant failed to detect false assertions in Clark's resume that claimed he had high level security clearance from the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD). Clark also passed a Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)-regulated background check. He was hired by the plant's previous owner, Consumers Energy Company, and operator, Nuclear Management Company, but was kept on by the new owner and operator, Entergy, since it acquired Palisades one month ago. The article can be found at http://www.esquire.com/...

              "What's disturbing is not only that Palisades hired an individual who claimed to be an experienced assassin but that apparently no one verified his claim to have DOD clearance," said Kevin Kamps, nuclear waste specialist at NIRS. "This has serious implications for security at all 103 reactors across the country. It begs the question as to what would have happened if Mohammed Atta had decided to fake a resume rather than fly a plane, and earned a top-level security job at one of our nuclear power plants."

              The article describes how Clark convinced NRC officials, as well as Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and Department of Homeland Security (DHS) agents, to support and even join his "Viper team," a supposedly "elite strike force" he set up at Palisades. According to Esquire, FBI agents and NRC officials attended a "Viper team" presentation by Clark hosted at DHS headquarters in Washington, D.C. The federal officials reportedly considered establishing Clark's "Viper teams" at nuclear power plants across the U.S.

              more...

              http://www.nirs.org/...

        •  Seems all reactors are not equal... (6+ / 0-)

          The NRC does not take the threat lightly and does have standards that are supposed to make the containment vessel resistant to 230 mph winds that are Cat 5 in strength.

          Still not all reactors conform to their spec and so far we have only had a handful of reactors in Alabama and Virgina suffer glancing blows from Cat 2 & Cat 3 tornadoes that caused them to be off-line for weeks.

          You're making assurances that don't seem to take into account the full NRC's assessments of various installations around the country nor take into account all of the emergencies that would arise after a direct strike.

          I would also add that neither did the management of the reactors in Japan... starting with the battery life needed to sustain cooling after a catastrophic event, the survivability of the back-up power generators and necessary emergency equipment and so on...  

          'Tornado Alley' reactor not fully twister-proof

          WASHINGTON (AP) — The closest nuclear power plant to tornado-ravaged Joplin, Mo., was singled out weeks before the storm for being vulnerable to twisters.

          Inspections triggered by Japan's nuclear crisis found that some emergency equipment and storage sites at the Wolf Creek nuclear plant in southeastern Kansas might not survive a tornado.

          Specifically, plant operators and federal inspectors said Wolf Creek did not secure equipment and vehicles needed to fight fires, retrieve fuel for emergency generators and resupply water to keep nuclear fuel cool as it's being moved.

          More...


          http://www.usatoday.com/...
          •  You start out talking about containments (0+ / 0-)

            then slip in an article about "some emergency equipment and storage sites at the Wolf Creek nuclear plant... equipment and vehicles needed to fight fires, retrieve fuel for emergency generators and resupply water."

            Typical for anti-nuke comments.

            Angry White Males + Crooks + Personality Disorder psychos + KKKwannabes + "Unborn Child" church folk =EQ= The Republicans

            by vets74 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:01:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  For starts... (3+ / 0-)

              1. No containment vessel as I noted has ever sustained a direct hit by a CAT 5 tornado.

              So bottom line... their design has not been tested under actual conditions. Any engineer is going to tell you that you don't really know until it is tested under actual conditions and design spec is an estimate at best.

              2. Fukishima Japan's meltdowns were the result of inadequate support periphery... ie battery life, generators, external storage rod pools outside of the containment vessel, etc. etc.

              Nothing could have exposed all of the real dangers inherent in reactor design like what happened in Japan and now the public knows a whole lot more, enough that Germany has decided to phase out all of its reactors by 2022.

              You're "all is well" comment is typical of nuclear power supporters who are arguing from a point of not really knowing. Engineers also told us the Titanic was unsinkable too!

              •  I support nuclear energy Flint but you (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Into The Woods, vets74, Flint

                are correct. They have done computer modeling of course for high winds and we know that reactors stand up well to earth quakes.

                Engineers have also looked at buildings that have stood up to Cat 5 tornadoes and drawn lessons from them.

                I agree with your point too. And so from an engineering perspective pro-nuclear engineers are looking into this because we see a problem, we try to fix it. We try to address these issues to make them better, etc.

                Most pro-nuclear folks I know want to see the older BWRs phase out in favor of reactors with passive/ambient cooling features like the AP1000 and the APR-1400.

                The method of assuming something unforseen will happen is hardly a way to develop energy sources. I'm not a big fan of hydro, but earthquakes have destroyed dams in the past, they've let go because flaws and wiped out huge areas. This is something to look at, ponder, analyse and come up with retrofits. I do not advocate tearing down Hoover or Grand Coolie because of what "might happen" but to address the issues.

                Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

                by davidwalters on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 11:04:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I support fusion research... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Russgirl, worldlotus

                  While to most of the scientific community it remains somewhere between "The Holy Grail" and "Leprechauns' pot of gold"... there continue to be new revelations that suggest it may be possible:

                  March 31, 2011
                  Overturned scientific explanation may be good news for nuclear fusion

                  Flat out wrong.

                  That’s what a team of Duke researchers has discovered, much to its surprise, about a long-accepted explanation of how nuclei collide to produce charged particles for electricity – a process receiving intense interest lately from scientists, entrepreneurs and policy makers in the wake of Japan’s nuclear crisis.

                  Plasma physicists have been trying for 25 years to create electricity from the fusion of boron and hydrogen atoms.

                  The new study says their efforts have been based on a misunderstanding of the underlying physics – although the error could end up actually helping those looking to fusion energy as an alternative energy source.

                  SNIP!

                  Now, 75 years later, the new insight makes the boron-fusion reaction even more interesting as a possible alternative to the nuclear fission process used in reactors in Japan and other parts of the world. A reactor based on this process could produce electricity without radioactive wastes. It also would not produce the carbon dioxide and other gases emitted by coal-powered plants.

                  Nuclear fusion still faces formidable challenges, one of the greatest being that hydrogen and boron only begin to fuse at temperatures close to 1 billion degrees Kelvin (nearly 2 billion degrees Fahrenheit). But building this type of reactor is realistic, says Weller, whose team is continuing to study the process at TUNL.

                  http://research.duke.edu/...

                  Reagan cut the funding for Lawrence Livermore Labs fusion research projects in 1981 (code named Shiva and Nova). This was a mistake in my opinion and arguments against its viability rank up there with "you can't break the sound barrier."

                  New breakthroughs continue to come down the line that seem to be making the impossible... possible.

                  Right now that research is being done on a grand scale in China:

                  Special report: In China the big nuclear question is "how soon"?
                  http://www.reuters.com/...

                  I'd rather see an increase in funding for clean technologies than to continue down a path that has so many obvious dangers.

                  I'd love to see and "energy race" similar to the "space race" of the bygone era.

                  Yes I'd like to see a full development of wind and solar too... anything but a continuation of fission reaction.

      •  Turkey Point took a direct hit ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u

        ... from Hurricane Andrew.

        No significant damage.

        •  Big difference between a tornado and a hurricane (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u

          Tornadoes appear rapidly and with focused intensity, hurricanes on the other hand give plenty of warning.

          Turkey Point required 8 hours for an orderly shutdown and they began shutting it  down 12 hours before the storm hit.

          You don't get 8 hours warning with a tornado and in many case you might have no more than 15 minutes if you are lucky.

          Turkey Points containment vessel stayed in tact as did Fukushima's but they also suffered significant damage to out side facilities as did Fukushima's reactors also... but not to the same extent.

          From a report in a letter written by Brian K. Grimes, Director, Division of Operating Reactor Support, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation:

          Hurricane Andrew is historic because this is the first time that a hurricane significantly affected a commercial nuclear power plant. The eye of the storm, with sustained winds of up to 233 kilometers per hour (km/h) [145 miles per hour (mph)] and gusts of 282 km/h (175 mph), passed over the Turkey Point site and caused extensive onsite and offsite damage.

          The onsite damage included loss of all offsite power for more than 5 days, complete loss of communication systems, closing of the access road, and damage to the fire protection and security systems and warehouse facilities. However, despite the intensity of the hurricane and the age of the plant, onsite damage was limited to fire protection, security, and several non-safety-related systems and structures. There was no damage to the safety-related systems except for minor water intrusion and some damage to insulation and paint, and there was no radioactive release to the environment. The units
          remained in a stable condition and functioned as designed.

          Snip!

          Turkey Point procedures for timing of a plant shutdown in anticipation of a hurricane require that the plant be in at least Mode 4 (i.e., hot shutdown) 2 hours before the onset of hurricane-force winds at the site.

          Estimating 8 hours to complete an orderly shutdown, the licensee began a plant shutdown approximately 12 hours before the predicted landfall of the hurricane. As a result, both units were in Mode 4 when Hurricane Andrew struck.

          Snip!

          Additionally, at Turkey Point (and at other commercial reactors susceptible to hurricane damage), important equipment (e.g., auxiliary feedwater) is located outside and likely would not be accessible during a hurricane.

          Snip!

          During the storm, failed nonsafety-grade equipment damaged certain important equipment. For example, the high water tank collapsed onto the fire water system, rendering the fire protection system inoperable.

          In addition, the storm threatened safety-related equipment (e.g., potential collapse of the damaged Unit 1 chimney onto the diesel generator building).

          More...

          http://eyeonmiami.blogspot.com/...

          •  Why didn't you highlight this section? (0+ / 0-)
            There was no damage to the safety-related systems except for minor water intrusion and some damage to insulation and paint, and there was no radioactive release to the environment. The units
            remained in a stable condition and functioned as designed.

            Seems more important than the condition of an access road.

    •  Tell us about how "impossible" it is, '74 (7+ / 0-)

      Photobucket

      Like you did early into the Fukushima story?

      But drop the "media whore" line, or start getting HR'd.

      If someone called you a "nuke whore", you'd be screaming.

      There are no unreasonable or alarmist claims in this diary.

      And northern Japan, and Tokyo, are still at substantial risk, should there be another explosion, which remains a real possibility...especially if it happens while the wind is blowing in wrong direction, and it starts raining.

      What long-term contamination has already occurred, and how many people will suffer cancers, miscarriages and mutations still remains to be seen, but indications are that effects could already be quite serious.

      People have been cutting you a lot of slack, maybe because of your handle...nobody wants to hit a tweaked out vet, it seems.

      But if Nathguy can get 86'd for crossing the line, then so can you, bubba.  At least he brought a good selection of media and documentation to support his position, which you do not.  

      But that was no excuse for some of his deliberately provocative and abusive remarks, so he's gone.

      Either rein in your rhetoric, or take the consequences.

      Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

      by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 07:55:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't hydrate people you're arguing with. (0+ / 0-)

        An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

        by OllieGarkey on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 08:37:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you mean don't HR someone you agree with? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Earth Ling, Russgirl, PreciousLittle

          Photobucket

          In fact, that was my first post in this diary, I think, and was an explanation of my HR.

          But you choose to bring a typically false, diversionary "argument' with no basis, which is essentially an adhominem attack, accusing me of subjectively and improperly dropping donuts...too typical of the absolutely unprincipled tactics of nuke advocates.

          If you want to argue, at least bring something material, rather than jive bullshit, mmk?

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 09:48:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not a Nuke advocate or a Nuke opponent. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            worldlotus

            I think you all spend too much time trolling each other for either side to take the high ground, and I think both sides show a woeful lack of trustworthy evidence.

            Where are the peer-reviewed scientific journals that back up what either side says?

            This is such an important issue, and both sides aren't using neutral, peer-reviewed scientists.

            They pick the sources that prove the points they want to believe.

            So yes, I'm saying don't hide-rate someone accusing people of sensationalism whether they're supporting or opposing nuclear power.

            Few people on either side have written diaries that live up to any appropriate evidential standard on a divisive issue.

            I am neutral. I am willing to be convinced by either side. I have listened when your side tells me I can't trust the IAEA because I understand corporate malfeasance when it comes to influencing government agencies.

            So I'm waiting for someone, anyone, to drop a peer-reviewed journal article.

            So far, I haven't seen that happen.

            Maybe I missed it. Do you have links?

            But I really wish that both sides would stop being assholes to each other.

            I don't mean you specifically because you seem angry but reasonable. Perhaps your HR was appropriate. I just wish it had come from someone who didn't have a dog in this fight, and I get so tired of the comment wars where very little neutral and trustworthy evidence is provided.

            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

            by OllieGarkey on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 12:09:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  did Nathguy get kicked off the site? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u

        That's bullshit if so. Any links so I can see how it happened?

        “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

        by Earth Ling on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 09:55:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He did (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u

          He made a homophobic comment, and then in a subsequent diary that Publius trolled, nathguy doubled then tripled down on the indefensible rhetoric in response to baiting. Publius owns his scalp.

          Check nathguy's last diary.

          No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.

          by Magster on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:12:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  thanks for the info (0+ / 0-)

            amazing that Publius, with all his/her links to Japan, still defends nuclear.

            I'll check Nath's last diary, thanks.

            “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

            by Earth Ling on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:23:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  yeah, that Publius can be vicious (0+ / 0-)

            He needs moar donuts, I think.

            Not in retaliation for nathguy, per se, but on his own, sometimes despicable, merit, which consistently deserves harsh rebuke.

            But yeah, he was the main instigator in getting nathguy 86'd, it seems.  He even sent me private messages, trying to drum up support for attacking nathguy.

            And that bugged me, a lot, since I've never spoken privately with Publius before, and have, in fact, HR'd him and argued heatedly with his own propensity for jive bullshit, before.

            Resorting to private messaging, to round up a posse like that, seemed...unprincipled, to say the least, especially considering the circumstances (and I responded accordingly, heh).
             

            Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

            by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 11:01:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't have links, but yes... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Earth Ling, Russgirl

          Which, I suppose, is as it should be, actually, since he refused to restrain himself from pretty egregious provocative slurs against detractors...despite repeated pleas, even from his supporters, to knock it off.

          While everyone pretty much agrees (except nuke advocates) that he brought some excellent journalism, he crossed the line, too many times, in too heinous a manner.

          What's really bullshit is that those who deliberately relentlessly provoked him with absolutely scurrilous attacks, hoping for that very result, do not also get HR'd for their own remarks moar.

          They are still here, running the same deliberately provocative, unprincipled jive, no doubt hoping that Adept or others will also loose their cool and say something indefensible, so they can scream about it and get them banned, too.

          I'm looking at you, Adept, lol...stay cool, man, as you have been, because we all value your perspective and presentation...even if you do sometimes get a little too...aggro, and...flippant...in your riposte, LOL.

          (a fine line, and easier to say, than do, I know, from my own personal experience)

           

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:17:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes - I have been provoked into (0+ / 0-)

            going too far. So I understand that.

            And I'll admit to having gone a little too far on my own as well!

            Thanks for explaining what happened. I am sorry that we lost Nathguy.

            “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

            by Earth Ling on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:22:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Me too...indeed, you and I have crossed swords... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Earth Ling

              a few times, as I recall, lol, even though I think you do often bring very good remarks.

              I'm kinda wrassling with that...contradiction, like in terms of whether or not to rec and give someone mojo, even if I agree with a particular remark, when I recall previous clashes.  

              Too often, when I have had strong disagreements with the line someone is projecting, I have jumped to the conclusion that they are just a clueless troll...but then upon reviewing their profile and other remarks, I find it's not necessarily that...simple, or absolute, heh, which can be...disconcerting.

              I literally begged nathguy to chill, in private messages, but he just responded with assertions that his detractors "deserved" a dose of their own medicine.

              I'm not convinced that some of his most horrific comments were not just contrived to elicit maximum outraged response, rather than being actual representations of his own...beliefs, and perspective.

              But, oh well, such nuances become meaningless, when one goes too far, regardless of how "correct" the rationalization may be, heh.

              Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

              by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:48:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  what I appreciate the most is when people (0+ / 0-)

                like you go ahead and tip a comment because it is well-reasoned and fair, DESPITE perhaps having gotten cross ways with the commenter in other instances.

                I try to to the same and I thank you for doing what you're doing.

                For instance I checked out comments by elwior and realized that she was way, way more than just a defender of Obama. Do I think he/she gives Obama too much credit/slack? Yes.

                Do I think he/she is a troll for Obama? No way, not after seeing all the stuff he/she is involved in.

                Thanks for trying to talk Nathguy down. That's very cool. You are working for the greater good when you do shit like that. That is what need way more of.

                “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

                by Earth Ling on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:57:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Owww...maybe better we don't go there, LOL (0+ / 0-)

                  Wouldn't want to hijack a nuke diary, with an "Obamabot" vs "traitorous oppositionalist, siding with the Republicans" war.

                  Too many people go too far, in both directions, no doubt...but ultimately, I think it's far better to err on the side of expressing principled (if qualified) solidarity with the Prez and the Party, to crush the Republicans, than to so viciously pile on with subjective hyperbolic adhominem attacks against the Prez and the Party, which tend to resemble Faux "News" hype, more than anything else, and are all too prolific here.

                  Oh well...now I've gone and done it...and you've confirmed my hesitation to rec your comment...which I have withdrawn, since principle is more important to me than your compliments.

                  Which brings us to the implications of this diary, and your own participation in it...

                  Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

                  by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 11:22:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  funny! (0+ / 0-)

                    Mojo is not as important as substantive discussions. And we're both clearly trying to have substantive discussions, whatever shortcomings we may have.

                    I'll continue to push myself to tip comments that are well reasoned and factual, even if the author generally annoys me.

                    “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

                    by Earth Ling on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 11:32:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Does it annoy you...that Prez is "soft" on nukes? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      worldlotus, Earth Ling

                      Photobucket

                      On consideration, this seems a relevant topic, in terms of how we are to resolve this issue, of freakin' nukes, just for example.

                      Teh Prez sez, "if, when" they are "safe", we'll do nukes, and approves $36bil to make it so.

                      I'm convinced that as soon as EPA is fully funded and staffed, they will soonest put a report on Mr. Obama's desk, that there's no such thing as "clean" coal or "safe" nukes, or "cheap" frakin' gas, and that we must go green, all the way, immediately, to save the planet.

                      And teh Prez will say "OK, let's do it!", with the back up and/or the jack up, that he needs, to call his bluff, if that's what it is, about "make me", whether he wants it or not.

                      inauguration 2
                      inauguration

                      Progressive/moderate Democratic Majorities, for real, NOT rotten with Blue Dogs.  

                      THEN, we will kick right wing ass all up and down both sides of the aisle, like "some people" pretend to think we woulda shoulda coulda done, while hostage to right wing majorities, since day one.

                      The ONLY way to staff and fund EPA, and other regulatory agencies, and suppress the right wing embedded agents proliferate throughout every facet of gov't apparatus, is to gain sufficient progressive/moderate plurality.

                      Photobucket

                      Then, and ONLY then, we can totally role out the new green paradigm, all the way, put everyone back to work, bring home the troops, etc. etc.

                      Less plurality, not so much, or worse.

                      Bring the Better Democrats!

                      All Out for 2012!

                      DFH: Totally Rule

                      Photobucket

                      Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

                      by Radical def on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 12:11:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, it annoys me very much that the prez (0+ / 0-)

                        is pushing for $36 billion for new nukes when instead he should be demanding that all of our spent fuel pools be emptied (down to the most recent 2 to 3 years worth of spent fuel) and placed into dry cask storage.

                        It'd be very expensive, but massively less expensive and less costly than an accident.

                        You think we have to be supportive of the prez, until all the stars align, despite him doing very questionable things.

                        I support the prez doing the right thing regardless of the Rahm-esque political calculations.

                        You think that Democrats sucking up to Wall Street, the MIC, Big Pharma, Big Ag, etc is somehow going to get us into a position where the stars align and suddenly Obama can do all the right things.

                        I see that strategy as putting us in bed with some pretty evil forces and causing your glory day to recede forever over the horizon, never actually happening.

                        “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” – Einstein (1946)

                        by Earth Ling on Wed Jun 08, 2011 at 07:34:30 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  I liked Natguy and am sorry to see him not (0+ / 0-)

            here. He can come back, use a differenent Name, etc. NNadir got tossed, came back a a year later.

            Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

            by davidwalters on Tue Jun 07, 2011 at 10:27:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think you have this quite right. (0+ / 0-)

              I probably shouldn't speak to this, and have never explained it, possibly because it's not really the nice thing to do...

              This website is not - and to be fair it acknowledges as much - a free microphone open to all points of view.   On the contrary it is a piece of property which the owner manages as such.

              I was gone from this piece of property for roughly a year, plus or minus, a few hours, minutes, days, weeks or months.   I could have been a guest on this property with a mere click that would have taken - and did take - a second.

              I refused to acknowledge a "warning" on ethical grounds.

              I was wholly unsure of whether it was the right thing to be associated with this place.

              So I really struggled with whether to make that click, probably because if I once took this place seriously.

              That is far less true today, although I do take a guilty pleasure in educating people about little bits of science, like say, Lyme disease or the physiology of trees in droughts.

              In the energy sphere, it is far too late to do anything serious, and all the caterwauling here about this and that is far beyond the possibility of making a difference in the inevitable outcome.   So all that is left to one consists of nervous jokes, and one must merely amuse one's self with expressions of cynicism and despair.

              My views on energy were/are technically driven but the only reason that a person would put up with the contempt for science and the active ignorance, fear and superstition that characterizes the visceral anti-nuke movement as expressed on this property have had to have originated from ethics.

              But it is impossible to have an ethical struggle about an asteroid that is about to collide with the earth, and it is now impossible to have an ethical struggle about energy and the environment.

              In former times I was willing to put up with - and was never shy about returning (and to be sure) expanding - on slews of contemptuous language here.   Ignorance can only thrive in silence, I reasoned,   I couldn't have cared less, frankly, about what anti-nukes thought nor could I have cared about their hypocritical whining about how everyone should play nice.   In general when people whine about playing nice, they are doing so to deflect attention from the weakness of their arguments.    

              But even I had limits...

              It seemed hard enough to confront this stuff, which says (still) appalling things about our country, and frankly about our end of the political spectrum, the left, but it seemed to me that playing against a loaded deck managed by a visceral anti-nuke was too much.

              The diary that I created that generated the warning had a subtext that was unmistakable (and maybe a little cruel and it was intentionally so), but it had no troll rates of any kind, and so I did not take the warning to be an expression of honesty but rather as an expression of a willingness to be self serving with the use of power.   I don't like that sort of thing.

              In the present case...

              I have no idea who Natguy is or was.

              I have never read a Natguy diary in my life and if he or she made homophobic remarks, this is reprehensible and if the owner of the property refuses to allow such things, I really have no problem with that.

              I think - and it has taken way too long to get here - that our culture is finally coming to the point of recognizing that gay people should have no fewer rights than those to which any human being is entitled. I fully respect the owners impetus to manage his property in this way of not allowing anti-gay slurs.   This is how I try to manage my property, my home.  I do my best to teach my children about how gay slurs are not acceptable even though they get other messages of which I cannot approve in their public life at school.

              The irony of this cultural improvement comes at a time (I am convinced) that our culture is doomed.

              Rote hatred sucks, even couched as comedy.

              These remarks on hatred made, I still think it is immoral  not to hate ignorance and fear and superstition, although I believe that ignorance and fear and superstition are the clear winners of these times.    We all born ignorant, and we all live with fear, and most of us have superstitions.    But the point of an ethical universe is not to remain in an incoherent infancy but to struggle against one's biological blank slate to reach some higher level - and I mean nothing mystical by this.    

              In these past weeks I've been reflecting a great deal on Hesse's prologue to Demian, which was a great touchstone in my moral life and trying to figure out where my responsibility lies.   It is good to hear that poetry again and to remember what it was to believe in poetry but maybe poetry is ridiculous.

              Writing here is not serious - it couldn't be, since it is often wandering among clowns - but maybe there is an outside chance it can be a step on a path to some greater thing as I face my own inevitable death.

              The year I was away from here was one of the most productive of my intellectual life, because I wan't goofing off here.   My ideas reached a new level, which in many ways was as depressing as thrilling.   To be honest, though, my little notes written here in the form of diaries - or at least the research to write them - did stimulate interesting ideas that I would have not had without preparation for some of my them, at least the better ones.

              Most of what I write here now consists of very elaborate cynical jokes designed to break the tension as I wait for the inevitable, but, for what's it's worth, I do want it understood that my absence for a year was a mutual decision.   It proved to be one that was very useful, inasmuch as I began to write a book called, um, Ignorance Kills and that process of that failed writing attempt certainly helped - if not with my technical understanding - then with an understanding of what life should be about.  

              I should reread Camus' Le Chute maybe, but there is not time.

              The former moderator I think struggles powerfully to be a good and honest man but like all human beings involved in such a struggle - and I hope I was engaged in a struggle to be a good and honest man - falls short because invariably one cannot actually see very far if one is, in fact, a human being.

              So much the better for each of us.

              But all that said, the fact is that he, the former moderator, was and is a viceral anti-nuke, and the visceral anti-nuke mentality has done enormous damage to future generations and will not, should history exist, be excused by history.   Of this I am certain.   There is going to be hell to pay, and if anyone remembers anything at all of me - not a good bet - I want to be recorded as having done what I could.  

              The moderator and I each made our own points in my studied absence, I would suppose - though I do not speak for him - and maybe each of us is satisfied in some marginally important way.

              Blogging is nonetheless waste land, and often serves as a megaphone for ignorance, fear, and superstition, but the point is somewhat less important than advertised.

              I have, of course, collected, since returning, troll rates (or hide rates or whatever they call them) from from ignorant, fearful and superstitious people - in many ways it's a badge of honor - but I have never once again been seriously threatened by the management as I was then with enforced silence.   This is to the owner's credit on some level, because my view on an ethical approach to what must done about the environment is clearly very different than the owner's.

              This is a viscerally anti-nuke site, and all of the front pagers (and presumably the owner) are visceral anti-nukes, but if they play fair and try not to become a leftist version of Fox News, I will participate when I have the time, though frankly,  it is true that I have less and less time to goof around, and it also true that I always feel a certain guilt about wasting time as I am now even as I write this pile of useless horseshit.

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