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View Diary: Mormon Pride 2011: LDS church calls for political action against nontraditional families (116 comments)

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  •  There never will be any reconcilliation (29+ / 0-)

    while ever Churches are lead by those who refuse to accept that Faith and evidential beliefs can co-exist.

    The Leaders of those Churches, of many denominations, maintain their positions by being the sole arbiters of the truth. Take that away and they have little to offer.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Sat Jun 11, 2011 at 11:15:39 PM PDT

    •  Please tell me what you mean by "evidential (0+ / 0-)

      beliefs."

      Thanks

      God is the problem, not the solution.

      by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 12:01:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  evidence vs. incentive (18+ / 0-)

      Your comment reminds me of Paul Graham's line that

      The truth is common property. You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false.

      Highly demanding religions like the Mormons, JWs, etc. have thrived on the tension between themselves and the mainstream, but I suspect they've misread the culture and they're set to lose the bulk of their under-30s because they've mismanaged that tension and gotten too far out of sync.

      •  or perhaps not moved far enough (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Da Rat Bastid, Shockwave

        since it appears young Dominionists and Tribulationists continue to swell the ranks of Evangelicals

      •  CB, thanks for this important diary (23+ / 0-)

        bringing to those of us not within reach of this information, an understanding of what is going on.

        This brings me to a point that I think is very important in all elections, but particularly in the upcoming one.  Particularly since we have two RepubliCorp's LDS candidates: Romney & Huntsman.

        I do believe that the time has come to ask candidates about whether they believe certain specific tenets of their religion:  in this case the LDS stand re. homosexual equal rights.  I believe that the electorate has a right to know this, because their militant support for anti-gay measures would deny a segment of our population their civil rights through legislative means, and IS PUBLIC BUSINESS.

        I believe that we should PUSH the candidates to truly answer whether or not they would legislatively support their church's positions and of course, ask what their position is.

        Not just the LDS.  The evangelicals need to be pushed (Bachmann, et al) about their belief in the Rapture and End Times and whether they think it is approaching.  Because, it is my understanding that this crew, believes that the coming of the end times is a good thing and when they see earthquakes, nuke reactors going bonkers, tornadoes, they don't think: 'wow, what can we do to prevent or at least prepare better for this,' they think "yeah jesus is coming." and believe it is god's will that these things happen and don't believe in intervention of any sort.

        SO, WE MUST PRESS OUR POLITICIANS ON THIS.

        Thanks for this very, very helpful diary.

        If one of us is denied civil rights, all of us are denied civil rights.

        by SeaTurtle on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:24:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well said sea turtle! n/t (5+ / 0-)

          Catch St. Louis' progressive talk show, The Murdock Report, every Tuesday @ noon! Stream or download it: www.wgnu920am.com I do the twit thing too @Smokin'JoeWGNU

          by Da Rat Bastid on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 10:25:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And their support of Israel for all the wrong (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SteelerGrrl, john07801

          reasons.

        •  I cosign this sentiment 100% (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chino Blanco, SteelerGrrl, jayden

          While the Constitution makes clear that their should not be a religious test for office, it is our duty to hold candidates accountable for the tenets of their belief systems.  Hell, JFK had to pinky-swear-with-no-takesy-backsies that the Pope wouldn't be the true Head of State.

          You hit the nail on the head right here:

          I believe that the electorate has a right to know this, because their militant support for anti-gay measures would deny a segment of our population their civil rights through legislative means, and IS PUBLIC BUSINESS.

          [...]

          Not just the LDS.  The evangelicals need to be pushed (Bachmann, et al) about their belief in the Rapture and End Times and whether they think it is approaching.  Because, it is my understanding that this crew, believes that the coming of the end times is a good thing and when they see earthquakes, nuke reactors going bonkers, tornadoes, they don't think: 'wow, what can we do to prevent or at least prepare better for this,' they think "yeah jesus is coming." and believe it is god's will that these things happen and don't believe in intervention of any sort.

          The Republican Party built up the power of the Christian conservatives, and in doing so, mainlined religion into 21st century politics; we need to take advantage of this and turn it against them.

          The evangelical crowd believe the LDS church is literally a cult of blasphemers; it would be a severe lapse in judgment for Progressives not to pit the Republican candidates against eachother during their primaries so that we can reap the rewards in the general election.  We have two opportunities to splinter support within their party: pitting radical rightwing Christians against the Mormons in their party, and motivating the teabaggers to go third party.  This splintering isn't going to be conducted or condoned by the DNC or any Democratic candidate; Progressives need to take it upon themselves to plan and engage in a successful strategy of disrupting the Republican machine.

          As a social experiment, we'll also find out an answer to the hierarchy of bigotry within the Christian Right: will they vote for someone who they believe is a cult member, or will they risk allowing an African American to remain in office for a second term?

    •  That's so egotistical of them (7+ / 0-)

      Why is it when you look closely at some church elder's beliefs, they boil down to keeping everybody else and their point of view down so THEY can be the big man in town? Why is this egotism, er, tolerated so much in the church?

      Real Democrats don't abandon the middle class. --John Kerry

      by Lucy Montrose on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:19:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mormons... (7+ / 0-)

        ...think they are the "One True Church". Notice in any LDS document the word "Church" is always capitalized. It represents the height of their arrogance. They are right and every other church (excuse me, Church) is "apostate and corrupt". Therefore, they can do no wrong. Ergo, you can sense the condescending smugness and poor poor LDS victimization with a knife.

        I try to separate the good with this bad but this "one true church" thing is what infuriates me about the Mormons more than anything else about them.

        •  Well, to be fair (0+ / 0-)

          they're not the only "Church" that does that -- happens with the Catholics and some other denominations as well.

          Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes

          by Cali Scribe on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 11:14:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Catholics also believe they're the One True Church (0+ / 0-)
          Mormons...think they are the "One True Church". Notice in any LDS document the word "Church" is always capitalized. It represents the height of their arrogance. They are right and every other church (excuse me, Church) is "apostate and corrupt". Therefore, they can do no wrong. Ergo, you can sense the condescending smugness and poor poor LDS victimization with a knife.

          I try to separate the good with this bad but this "one true church" thing is what infuriates me about the Mormons more than anything else about them.

          Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is a modern prophet and that his story is historical truth; no other Christian church believes that LDS extra-biblical scripture is canon, so why wouldn't Mormons profess that they're "the one true church" if they're the only church who profess the historical truth and divine revelation of The Book of Mormon?

          And how is it any different than Catholicism?  The papacy asserts its authority as coming directly from JC:

          the Divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith, by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals. And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith. The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter. To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith."

          The Eastern Orthdox Church alleges the same "one true church" authority about itself, no?

          As an agnostic atheist, I've never quite understood the logic behind the Protestant notion that the son of god would appear on earth, restructure the entire faith of Judaism, and then not setup a church structure to be followed for the next two thousand years, but that's another discussion...

    •  The opposite of faith is not doubt (3+ / 0-)

      as we were reminded today by an extraordinary Episcopal bishop. The opposite of faith is certainty. We don't control God, nor do we define him. If you think you know the mind of God, you've missed something, probably a lot of somethings.

      Those in the LDS and other denominations, absolutely certain in their beliefs, are, by my bishop's statement, faithless. They are idolators, worshipping little gods, trying to make them real. The idols they worship? Family values. Traditional marriage. The definition of marriage. Their "divinely appointed" role. The "Lord's chosen way." Their hatred for diversity and tolerance foments injustice and encourages violence against others. Sometimes I wonder if the LDS is so preoccupied with its own prophets that they forget the message of Christianity, to love one another as Jesus loved us.

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