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View Diary: Declaration of Thingamajig (155 comments)

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  •  Not reality-based at all. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eigenlambda

    I don't hesitate to note the double-digit number of accidental civilian deaths caused by the protective mission.

    What I refuse to do is pretend that that number is the equivalent of the lives saved.  There is simply no way to make the case that the two are even within the same ballpark.

    NATO bombs are especially inaccurate when it comes to hitting rebels? I don't think so.

    Those NATO strikes weren't inaccurate.  They hit the targets they were aiming for.  Unfortunately, they had misidentified the targets, because we aren't coordinating very closely with the rebels, and mistakes happen in wartime.  What should tell YOU something is that the rebels' response is not to ask NATO to stop, or even to ease back.  The actual rebels in Libya are calling for more NATO strikes and closer coordination.  They don't seem to believe you when you assert that they'd be better off without the protective mission.

    because you bomb the crap out of city of 2.5 million and not kill innocents.

    We haven't been "bombing the crap out of Tripoli."  We've been hitting specified targets in and around the city.  If you want an example of "bombing the crap out of" cities, take a look at what was happening to Misurata, in which dense urban areas were being deliberately targeted by artillery.  NATO is bending over backwards, to a degree never before seen in an air war, to avoid collateral damage - to the point that the Libyans themselves are complaining that NATO is limiting its effectiveness by being too risk-averse.

    terrorized by the Shock and Awe campaign

    There is no Shock and Awe campaign.  You're using buzzwords intended to push buttons, and in doing so, making statements at odds with reality.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Thu Jun 23, 2011 at 09:38:17 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I borrowed "Shock and Awe" (9+ / 0-)

      from kinetic action supporter Juan Cole, who is criticizing the "shock and awe" strategy.

      It's scary that you accuse me of "pushing buttons" (Allah forbid) when your posts are dripping with pro-war propaganda.

      "Double digit" deaths. Yeah, sure. Thousands of of bombs on Tripoli but only double digit deaths.

      We're "bending over backwards" to prevent civilians deaths. Don't we always. A Pentagon spokesperson could have said it any worse.

      •  Juan Cole misstates what's happening. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eigenlambda

        Juan Cole is a genius, and an expert on the Middle East and foreign policy, but he used the term wrong.  He took the same shortcut you did, and calculated that bombing in and around a city = shock and awe.  If it was a "shock and awe" campaign, we'd be targeting bridges, public infrastructure, and other targets highly visible and important to the general public, because the purpose of shock and awe is to demonstrate overwhelming military might in as public a way as possible in order to stun the population.  What we're actually doing is striking military and command targets in Tripoli in order to erode the capability of the loyalist military.

        Now, Cole's misuse of the term "shock and awe" doesn't change his argument, which is that NATO should be flying more missions around the front lines and fewer over Tripoli.  There's a good case to be made there.

        your posts are dripping with pro-war propaganda.

        Noting that my comments favor one side of an argument doesn't make them propaganda.  Calling my observations about the facts on the ground "propaganda" is the equivalent of calling reports from climate change scientists "propaganda."  That the facts of the matter strongly support one conclusion over another doesn't make those facts biased.

        Thousands of of bombs on Tripoli but only double digit deaths.
         There haven't been thousands of bombs "on Tripoli" itself.  That's the point.  Bombing the Pentagon, or bombing an anti-aircraft emplacement on a base near Washington, is not the same thing as bombing dropping in Adams Morgan.
        We're "bending over backwards" to prevent civilians deaths. Don't we always.

        No, we don't, and that's the point.  This operation is being conducted using rules of engagement much stricter than those we usually use - probably because it isn't being commanded by Americans, but by the French and British.  But this is a factual question whose answer is to be found in a reality-based manner, instead of just assuming that your understanding of War as an abstract concept is all you need to draw conclusions.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jun 23, 2011 at 10:06:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Just to give you a sense of the reality of... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eigenlambda, shenderson

        the damage NATO is doing to civilians:

        The Gadaffi government came out with a poster child a few days ago, a little girl it said was killed by NATO air strikes.

        Hospital workers later confirmed that she had, in fact, died in a car crash.

        The propaganda lords in the regime couldn't even find a real civilian casualty to bemoan in front of the cameras.  They had to lie about a traffic accident.

        Why?  Shouldn't that tell you something about what's going on in Libya?

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jun 23, 2011 at 10:13:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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