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View Diary: War Powers Resolution is not optional (188 comments)

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  •  All we needed to do if we wanted oil... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nklein

    was to avert our eyes and let the oil dictator who was eagerly signing contracts with our companies to slaughter his opposition unhindered.

    God knows we've done it before.

    But not this time.  Thank God, not this time.  This time we stood with the people against the oil dictator, even when it caused a price spike for us.

    You can't just google a country's main export and declare that that was the cause of the war.

    And to look at a President who just kicked two longtime allies in the region - in Egypt and Tunisia - to the curb and declare that his foreign policy is being driven by material-based realpolitik is just not reality-based.  It's the substitution of a comfortable narrative for an adherence to the facts.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 08:14:32 AM PDT

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    •  It's not about getting the oil. It's about (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shaharazade, blueoasis

      getting the profits from the oil.

      The crazy asshole Dictator was taking way too big a cut.  

      What's worse, even after he sold off the state oil industry as demanded in return for taking his nation off the "State Supporter of Terrorism" list, he still kept demanding ever more bribes.

      Egypt was by no means "kicked to the curb".  Mubarak was eventually cut loose, but our State Department is currently throwing its weight behind the his former head torture coordinator.

      Mayan culture was strong enough to save the Mayan people from Mayan civilization.

      by JesseCW on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 08:20:30 AM PDT

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      •  We WERE getting the profits from the oil. (0+ / 0-)

        Our oil companies were in there, raking in the dough.  John McCain was visiting and praising Khadaffy.

        As usual, you've managed not to know the facts when they're not on your side.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 08:31:47 AM PDT

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        •  You don't understand the difference (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis

          between getting some of the profits and getting all of the profits?

          The Trans-Nationals based in the US and Europe are simply tired of paying so much to buy off powerful local leaders for access to resources.    They need bigger profits every quarter, and one quick way to boost them 10-20% is to kick the local bottom feeders away.

          Oligarchies are way cheaper to buy, since it's easier to play one faction against another.  5%, tops.

          Mayan culture was strong enough to save the Mayan people from Mayan civilization.

          by JesseCW on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 08:52:34 AM PDT

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          •  "All of the profits?" WTF? (0+ / 0-)

            Name a single country in the world where the driller, or the United States, get "all of the profits."

            One.  Name one.  Heck, American companies don't even get "all of the profits" from the drilling of oil in the US!

            Tell me, why didn't we have a military intervention in Libya when we were getting NONE of the profits?

            Tell me, how much of the profits from Libya oil were we getting when WE banned our companies from doing business there?

            The facts don't fit your narrative.  Our actions in Libya, going back before the military intervention, when we were issuing strongly worded letters and highlighting the regime's abuses, are an outgrowth of our actions towards Egypt, which evolved out of our actions towards Tunisia.

            We were able to use peer-to-peer contacts between military officers to help stop Mubarak from crushing the uprising with his military, but that was available in Libya.  So, when Gadhaffi militarized the situation (a polite way of saying "slaughtered thousands of people with air and artillery attacks"), the UN responded militarily.

            And in doing so, our oil interests took a hit.  Heck, our deference to the French and British, and the minimal role we're playing in this operation (we're currently flying about 1/20th of the strike sorties) all-but-guarantees that the US is going to get a smaller share of the contracts.

            Is that how our oil wars have worked?  A small American role, deference to allies, accepting a smaller piece of the pie, no ground troops, and a military strategy that leaves the outcome in doubt?

            I've see the movie you're talking about, and this isn't how it goes.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 09:11:00 AM PDT

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            •  What the hell did I just write? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis

              Oligarchies are way cheaper to buy, since it's easier to play one faction against another.  5%, tops.

              We took Libya off the "State Supporter of Terrorism" list because Qaddaffi agreed to privatize most the state-run economy.  That's the simply observable fact.

              Qaddaffi pissed off the people who bought said industries by continuing to demand large bribes in order to keep doing business.  That's also simple, observable, fact.

              The Egyptian Military didn't engage in slaughter because courageous Egyptian officers in the field refused to do so.  They co-ordinated outside normal channels, using their cell phones, and simply disobeyed orders.

              That's also a matter of simple and virtually uncontested fact.  There's no "we" in how that went down.

              If you still think of any  Trans-National as "ours", you're not yet at a point where meaningful conversation is possible.

              Mayan culture was strong enough to save the Mayan people from Mayan civilization.

              by JesseCW on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 09:24:48 AM PDT

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              •  You just wrote "all the profits." That was dumb. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                nklein

                If we wanted an oligarchy, we had one.  Khadaffy's government is one, and we're supporting the democratic movement to overthrow it.

                Your argument that a democratic regime growing out of a people-power revolution is going to be more pliable for oil companies is absurd.  We've spent decades siding against these movements, specifically because they're a threat to the system.

                But not this time.  Thank God, not this time.

                BUSH took Khadaffy off the terrorism list.  Since you don't seem to have noticed, we've pretty much reversed course on that conciliatory policy over the past few months.  You really, really don't need to lecture anyone on simple, observable facts if you hadn't noticed that.

                Qaddaffi pissed off the people who bought said industries by continuing to demand large bribes in order to keep doing business.

                That's business as usual in just about all of the oil-producing countries where we do business.  We don't go to war over it.  It's just a cost of doing very-profitable business.

                The peer-to-peer contacts between American officers and their Egyptian counterparts, both before and during the events this spring, have been widely reported.  More "simple observable facts" you've managed not to learn.

                If you still think of any  Trans-National as "ours", you're not yet at a point where meaningful conversation is possible.

                Um, champ?  YOU are the one who kept referring to "we" and "ours" when discussing the oil companies.  Look, it's clear you're flailing about for excuse to stick your fingers in your ears.  Just stop.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 10:06:01 AM PDT

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              •  Oh, and we're smearing people-power uprisings... (0+ / 0-)

                as "oligarchs" why, exactly?

                Oh, well.  At least the opponents of this action seem to have ceased smearing the Libyan protesters as Skeery Al Qaeda Mooslems.  For now.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 10:44:45 AM PDT

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            •  And you completely whiffed on French/UK profits. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nklein

              The way the United States is handling this situation will mean smaller profits for our oil companies from Libyan oil, because the soon-to-be-established democratic government will be more favorable to French and other European countries than to us.  They took the political lead in making this humanitarian action happen, and they account for the vast majority of the action.

              But our actions are all about profits for oil companies.  Uh huh.  Sure it is, just like Human Rights Watch is just putting out propaganda for imperialism and oil interests.

              Why, they must be, or else you wouldn't be able to denounce us as the bad guys.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Sun Jun 26, 2011 at 10:17:05 AM PDT

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