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View Diary: Mondofront: Now with Gilad Atzmon (147 comments)

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  •  I'm assuming this is addressed to me (0+ / 0-)

    The threading is confusing. Yes Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic.  The question is whether denying the Holocaust as a sui generis Jewish event is denying the Holocaust itself.  I grant most of the time I would say the argument is used as an excuse to hide Holocaust denial. But I can see there can be exceptions. Thus my hesitantly.

    What I find personally frustrating about the I/P debate is the position that both the Jews and the Palestinians are oppressed peoples is generally not allowed. If you aren't into the Israel Lobby conspiracy you're not really pro-P. If you don't like calling pro-P people anti-Semites you're not pro-I. Any of us trying to cut out a middle-of-the-road position get what any other middle-of-the-road people get, run over.

    •  No matter how finely you split those hairs..... (4+ / 0-)

      ....they're still hairs.

    •  I don't think that's true at all (8+ / 0-)

      I think most people here would agree that the Jews and Palestinians both have a long record of being oppressed. What I find bemusing is the idea that the kind of explaining away you've done of the clear and irrefutable Jew-hatred on Mondo is somehow "middle of the road."

      Unapologetic Obama supporter.

      by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:23:24 PM PDT

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      •  Mondo is NOT Middle of the Road (0+ / 0-)

        There really is no home for moderate pro-P folk. Moderate pro-I folk can live here. Immoderate pro-P folk can live on Mondo. Immoderate pro-I can live on Red State.

        •  Well see... no. Moderate Pro-P can live here (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102, zemblan, Corwin Weber, JNEREBEL

          and do.

          But rblinne, I have read your posts at MondoFront and they are different than here. Either way, no big deal.

          Look, Pro-P advocacy is fine. It just doesn't have to make use of anti-Semitic meme's and/or rhetoric. I mean you are really stretching the rhetoric here when you say:

          If you don't like calling pro-P people anti-Semites you're not pro-I. Any of us trying to cut out a middle-of-the-road position get what any other middle-of-the-road people get, run over.

          I dispute that statement about the Pro-P crowd, I see those here that are Pro-P that disagree with the whole Lobby thing. But I can't speak to the Pro-P movement because I am not Pro-P.

          As for as the Pro-I people.. that is a ridiculous claim regarding anti-Semitism. There are many here I disagree with strongly that I would not call anti-Semitic. It is not calling Pro-P here anti-Semitic unless they use anti-Semitic memes

          Middle of the road people are generally welcome in my book, but, if they take those positions they are going to have to play defense. I have read your diaries and comments, you are not middle of the road on this issue. I understand you are swinging against long held beliefs but in my opinion you swing way too far to one side to be middle of the road.

          Middle of the road is someone who understands fully both sides and advocates for a peaceful solution for both. Not only do they advocate for it but, they represent it. And not just here... anywhere. The closest I have seen to middle of the road is The Troubador or angry Marmot, and a few others. They are welcome on both sides and fight for both sides.

          DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:57:13 PM PDT

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          •  Middle of the Road Doesn't Mean Mushy (0+ / 0-)
            Middle of the road people are generally welcome in my book, but, if they take those positions they are going to have to play defense. I have read your diaries and comments, you are not middle of the road on this issue. I understand you are swinging against long held beliefs but in my opinion you swing way too far to one side to be middle of the road.

            I'm more than happy playing defense. What I mean by middle of the road is not a non-advocacy position. Rather it's a characteristic that I appreciate on the left of the ability of advocates of very different positions being able to dialog and disagree without excess rancor. I never EVER got that on the right and I like it. So, yes you'll get an emotional reaction out of me when you are trying to "clean house".

            What you don't see is how I try to advocate for American Jews amongst my evangelical friends. In short, I'm tying to convert their love for Israel into love for their Jewish neighbors.  Some how I have this inordinate obsession with lost causes.

          •  Think of it this way (0+ / 0-)

            If my being a very strong pro-P person feel like I'm middle-of-the-road on Mondo doesn't it make your point?

            I'm not really the best example of what I am talking about since I have a very thick skin and will debate in hostile environments just for "fun". Most people are not like that. There is a large contingent of young people on the left who are pro-P and much less combative than me and I just don't see a place for them.

            The people here should ask why aren't there more moderate pro-P people here (and you're right I don't count) and Mondo should ask why there are not moderate pro-I people there. Properly answering those questions will fix issues such as the anti-Semitism problem by way of side effect.

    •  oh, come on! (6+ / 0-)
      The question is whether denying the Holocaust as a sui generis Jewish event is denying the Holocaust itself.

      A fine little stump speech, maybe, but a red herring.

      Atzmon thinks there was no Nazi plot to exterminate the Jews.

      Are you going to continue to evade this point through a series of ever-thinner dodges?

      Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

      by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 08:15:29 PM PDT

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