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View Diary: Prosser vs Bradley: Investigations Go Forth (211 comments)

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  •  But my hands wouldn't touch that person's neck (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hillbilly Dem, Statusquomustgo

    if the person's fists were raised. Right?

    •  We don't know exactly where her fists were (0+ / 0-)

      Or if they moved, and so yeah, his outstretched arms and hands could have easily touched her neck.

      As I've said to others, put your arms out in front of you, palms perpendicular to the floor, thumbs almost touching, as though you're preparing to push something or someone.

      It would be easy to hit someone's neck that way if you missed their arms. And it's easy to miss arms.

      •  I don't think it sounds reasonable that she would (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Statusquomustgo

        have rushed at him with her fists up, but maybe I am wrong. I don't know. It is odd at any rate.

        •  Witnesses say that she did!!! (0+ / 0-)

          I swear, why are so many so afraid to acknowledge that she was at her wit's end dealing with this asshole?

          He was a prick who repeatedly disrespected women and the Chief Justice. He and the other members who had come to the majority conclusion that the legislation passed to strip unions of rights was legit came into her office, determined to get a copy of the ruling in time to meet a deadline set by the legislature. Bradley and Chief Justice Abraamson stonewalled - the CJ said it might take her a month to write up her dissenting minority opinion.

          A verbal fight ensued. Bradley told Prosser to leave, and he didn't. She charged him with her fist or fists raised and he pushed her away - and at the same time he pushed her away, she was being pulled away by another justice in the room who scolded her, saying that this wasn't like her (Bradley). That's what the evidence shows us.

          The week before the legislature was set to re-pass the collective-bargaining provision, three of the four conservative justices were ready to issue a ruling reinstating the union law as originally passed. Prosser, on the other hand, wanted to wait longer, to avoid the appearance that the court was rushing their decision through. Prosser thought he had an agreement with liberal Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson to delay release of the opinion until Tuesday of the following week.

          As Monday arrived, there was no word from Abrahamson on whether the decision would be issued the next day. At 5:30 p.m., Prosser and the other conservative justices marched around the chambers, looking for Abrahamson, who was found in Justice Bradley’s office. Prosser stood outside Bradley’s door, talking to the justices in Bradley’s office. The discussion got heated, with Prosser expressing his lack of faith in Abrahamson’s ability to lead the Court.

          According to one witness, Bradley charged toward Prosser, shaking her clenched fist in his face. Another source says they were “literally nose to nose.” Prosser then put his hands up to push her away. As one source pointed out, if a man wants to push a woman who is facing him, he wouldn’t push her in the chest (unless he wants to face an entirely different criminal charge). Consequently, Prosser put his hands on Bradley’s shoulders to push her away, and in doing so, made contact with her neck.

          At that moment, another justice approached Bradley from behind and pulled her away from Prosser, saying, “Stop it, Ann, this isn’t like you.” Bradley then shouted, “I was choked!” Another justice present replied, “You were not choked.”


          •  Witnesses? (0+ / 0-)

            You:

            Witnesses say that she did!!!

            The article you quote in support of your statement:

            According to one witness, Bradley charged toward Prosser, shaking her clenched fist in his face.

            One unknown witness (of unknown motivation) suddenly equals "witnesses"?

            Your take on this may indeed be accurate.  Or it may not.  There is a lot of confusion and conflicting reports ... but you seem very prone to take Prosser's version as the factual one when there is reason to believe it may not be.

            •  Yes, witnesses (0+ / 0-)

              It's the only evidence we have. Multiple witnesses have described this event as her charging him with her fists raised.

              There are not "many conflicting reports". I understand that's the spin you;ve been fed, but it's not true. In fact, the one "conflict", whether or not she was choked or not, seems to have been resolved by the statement that she herself made which acknowledges that she wasn't in fact, choked - that she was pulled away from him before he could choke her.

              The other "versions" simply left off info. The version that supported her version of events simply left off the things that happened before his hands touched her neck area. They don't say that those things that are alleged to have happened didn't happen. The failure of them mentioning those things (or denying those things) makes a nonpartisan person who hasn't bought into the spin realize that they left off the things that would be exculpatory for Prosser.

      •  Keep talking, this is hilarious (6+ / 0-)

        Either she was moving quickly or she wasn't.  If she was moving quickly and the poor guy's hands accidentally wrapped around her neck, then there would have been pressure.  Mass times acceleration equals force.  If she wasn't moving quickly then there would have been no basis for his hands to accidentally wrap around her neck with the thumbs in front.

        Your whole argument depends on her inaccurate use of the technical term "chokehold," which of course no one else corroborates because it wasn't a "Radio Raheem dies in Do the Right Thing" real chokehold.  Instead -- for there to be no pressure -- he must have put out his hands, not accidentally, and placed them around her neck in a pose of manual strangulation, which does not contradict anyone's testimony.

        You say:

        All the other, non-involved justices who were in the room say that no choking happened. They all say that there was no chokehold, that there was no squeezing, that there was no pressure, and that it only happened after she charged at him with her fists raised.

        You are being all-Star level disingenuous here.  She said that she was in a chokehold -- apparently meaning that his hands were in a position where he would be prepared to choke her -- but not that there was squeezing, not that there was pressure.  And I would like you to provide your evidence that "All of the other witnesses say that ... she charged at him with her fists raised, because that's not what I've heard from "all of the other witnesses."

        I don't know what you're up to, but at least you're not doing it well.

        To protect the Latino "community of interest" in redistricting Orange County, Santa Ana, eastern Garden Grove, and central Anaheim must be in the same legislative districts.

        by Seneca Doane on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 01:35:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really, you aren't very good at this (0+ / 0-)

          You need to stop trying to interpret events.

          She charged at him doesn't mean that she actually hit him, silly. And him reaching out to stop her from reaching him and/or to push her away doesn't mean that he applied pressure on her neck in a way that can fairly be described, as she described it, as a chokehold. That's her term, inaccurately described.

          And the nail in the coffin?

          Even SHE admits that she wasn't actually choked- she feared that he was about to choke her, that he would have choked her, had she not been pulled away by another justice!

          Abrahamson mimicked choking the tall, portly police chief. During her demonstration, Abrahamson emphasized that Prosser had exerted “pressure” on Bradley’s throat.

          “There was no pressure,” interrupted the justice who had initially broken up the incident between Bradley and Prosser. “That’s only because you broke us apart,” shot back Bradley. This exchange led several meeting attendees to believe Bradley was making up the charge, as they took her rejoinder as an admission that there was no pressure applied to her neck.

          Really - the hole you've dug for yourself is deep enough, you can stop digging now.

          •  Oh, if you don't mind, I'll keep digging (0+ / 0-)

            I keep striking gold.

            "She charged at him doesn't mean that she actually hit him, silly."

            I'm going to assume that you're familiar with the concept of "momentum."  OK, she "charges him" -- fists raised, mouth foaming -- at a certain velocity, which will in turn give her a certain amount of momentum.  Let's assume that, to give you the best possible chance of being right, she stops her charge instantly, cancelling out that momentum with Prosser's outstretched (and, ahem, fingers skyward, not Bradleyward) palms still microns from making contact with her neck.

            Now, how do his fingers eventually end up in the "around her neck without pressure being applied" position?  If she stops immediately, and he is simply standing still in a defensive "pushing away" posture, then how do his fingers get wrapped around her neck?  Indeed, how can he make the sort of "I was aiming for her sternum but somehow reached her trachea" mistake you're describing -- with fingers now extended Bradleyward -- if she has stopped all momentum?

            Well, you might say, maybe he leaned forward or extended his arms in that instant in order to wrap his hands around her suddenly-still neck!  OK, but if he did that in an instant, given the momentum of his own hands, how could there not be pressure?  Unless he's a very precisely constructed robot (which I can't entirely rule out), he would transfer momentum to her neck, which would impart pressure.

            Seems bizarre, doesn't it?  So try out this this alternative.  She had no momentum because she wasn't going very fast and had stopped short in plenty of time for a person to recognize that she was, simply, "in his face" rather than physically attacking him for failure to leave his office as requested.  His arms may or may not have been extended before that, but in any event, they were not yet extended far enough to reach her neck.  And then he extended his arms and placed them, without pressure, around the sides of his neck.

            That is consistent with her story.

            By the way, it is only in logic books, and not real-life conversations, that

            "There's was no pressure."

            "That's because you broke us apart."

            could be taken as an admission that there was no pressure, as if preceded by an assumed "I acknowledge that fact, but...."  In a real-life conversation, it would be preceded by an assumed "Even if that were true," because the amount of pressure was subsidiary to the basic problem that he committed, what I'm confident would be true under at least Wisconsin common law, battery as well as assault when he wrapped his arms around the sides of his neck.

            Yeah, the Republicans would take that as an admission, though.  Curiously, so do you.

            Pray, continue -- and don't forget to remind me how very very and continually wrong I am.  It adds savor to the interchange.

            To protect the Latino "community of interest" in redistricting Orange County, Santa Ana, eastern Garden Grove, and central Anaheim must be in the same legislative districts.

            by Seneca Doane on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 09:26:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hey, just a head's up, Ms. Madison (0+ / 0-)

            Someone at TPM has adopted a user name similar to yours and seems to be parodying you or otherwise trying to make you look ridiculous.

            To protect the Latino "community of interest" in redistricting Orange County, Santa Ana, eastern Garden Grove, and central Anaheim must be in the same legislative districts.

            by Seneca Doane on Fri Jul 01, 2011 at 02:04:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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