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View Diary: The Most Incredible Video of the Libyan Revolution (95 comments)

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  •  Very difficult to know what is reliable (0+ / 0-)

    information coming out of there.  There's also reports of ethnic cleansing of black libyans by the rebels in Misurata.  Hard to say what's true and what isn't.  I do know the vehement support by the neocon cabal of Kristol, McCain, Kagan, Wolfowicz, Cheney, etc., for this invasion definitely means something nefarious is up other than humanitarianism.  I don't see how that can be denied.

    S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 09:38:35 AM PDT

    •  Did you watch the video? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pozzo, nklein, raistuumum

      It is mostly a compilation of youtube videos taken in virtually all Libyan towns and cities, when the revolution was still peaceful, ie. before the Gaddafi Regime cracked downwith its full military might.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 09:42:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was talking generally about the thousands of (0+ / 0-)

        articles and videos I've been perusing about the Libya war over the last couple months.
        I have no idea whether this video is authentic or not.

        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 09:44:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Those are mostly stories of Sub-Saharan Africans (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, raistuumum

          who were attacked because Gaddafi has hired mercenaries from Chad.  While this violence is not justified, it is also not ethnic cleansing.  There have been dozens of organizations from the UN HRC to Amnesty International to the ICC in Libyan and nobody has accused the rebels of ethnic cleansing.  There have been reports of violence and sometimes severe mistreatment of POWs and foreigners, but nothing like ethnic cleansing.

          "Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure."

          by nklein on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:10:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, I saw that. I was just pointing out the type (0+ / 0-)

            of stories we're seeing and how it's hard to know what is or isn't true.  Or what the entire story is unless you delve further.  

            S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:17:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ethnic cleansing is a very big stretch from. . . (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence, raistuumum

              the accusations in the articles.

              "Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure."

              by nklein on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:43:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  well, some of us have been delving pretty deep (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raistuumum, Lawrence

              and consistently for quite some time. We're hearing regularly from people on the ground. We have a sense of their sense of things and it doesn't jive with all these theories of US imperialism.

              In fact, they've been pretty clear about the limited role they want NATO to play. They say that should NATO go one step further they'd fight them as hard as they've been fighting Gadaffi.

    •  Neocon support? So what? (6+ / 0-)

      The support of neocons for a war tells us absolutely nothing about that war, except that it is a war.  Those people would support any war, anywhere, for any reason.

      Thought experiment: Barack Obama engages in a military action in the Middle East for the most pure, moral, idealistic reasons imaginable.  What does John McCain say?

      "Oh, stop that, it's not a good idea for the US to engage in this war!"

      Name me a war that cabal didn't support.  Just one.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 11:33:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? You should study the PNAC charter and (0+ / 0-)

        other information as to why the neocons want Libya.  Like they wanted Iraq and Afghanistan and the entire MENA.  
        And I don't know where you get your info.  McCain is fully in support of this so called war.  

        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 01:36:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You need to read better. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pozzo, nklein, raistuumum

          Nothing you've written has the slightest relationship to anything I've written.

          You seem to think that I said John McCain was opposed to the Libya operation, and I haven't the foggiest idea how you managed to pull that one off.

          And you seem to think that pointing out the PNAC crowd's support for a war in a Middle Eastern country is in any way a refutation of something I've written.

          I really don't know what to tell you.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 01:59:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I did read that wrong but same here. Guess (0+ / 0-)

            we're on different sides, kind of like when Bush was Prez.  Good to know tho huh?  Makes things easier.

            S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:03:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, reflexive opposition based on personality... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pozzo, nklein, raistuumum

              really is easy.

              But wait!  Juan Cole supports the mission!  Juan Cole and John McCain, ending up on the side side of a question!

              Oh no!  Now what will you do?

              Nah, I'm just kidding.  It's a military operation, so I'm guessing you're not going to sweat the details.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:06:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I always end these with, you a Vet? (0+ / 0-)

                S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

                by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:07:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What is this, Starship Troopers? (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  nklein, Lawrence, raistuumum, UnaSpenser

                  What a fascist question.

                  As if only people with the proper military credentials are allowed to opinion on political matters.

                  Oddly enough, nobody ever asks if I'm a nurse when I support single-payer health care, or if I work in a soup kitchen when I support transitional housing, or if I drive a bus when I support public transit.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:11:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's what we used to ask the neocon chicken (0+ / 0-)

                    hawks during the Bush years.  You should remember that.  That's a common term and a common question, not fascist at all.  

                    "Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, yet who actively avoided military service when of age."

                    S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

                    by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:14:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, it is a fascist question. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BigAlinWashSt, nklein, raistuumum

                      We haven't a draft in my lifetime; I've done absolutely nothing to avoid anything.  I simply didn't choose a particular career.  To imply that one cannot opine on questions of foreign policy if one didn't affirmative choose to become a soldier is downright fascist.

                      For the chickenhawk charge to be legitimate, it needs to be aimed at someone who actually worked to avoid military service that other people were required to perform, while arguing in favor of a war; or it needs to be aimed at someone who cites their own (alleged) superiority in courage or patriotism over those of war opponents.

                      To use it in other contexts is to refer to people as "chickens" because they didn't serve in the military - and yes, that's downright fascist.

                      Art is the handmaid of human good.

                      by joe from Lowell on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:19:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ah, OK, we're all settled then. Have a good day. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        joe from Lowell

                        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

                        by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:21:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That is sad. . . (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Pozzo, raistuumum

                          your going to dismiss his opinion and I guess mine as well because we are not soliders.  What about all the soldiers or veterans that support this war?

                          Should we just have a vote among veterans and soldiers whether we go to war?  I wasn't aware that is how we operated in this country.

                          "Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure."

                          by nklein on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:28:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Why didn't you ask if he was a pilot then? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pozzo, Lawrence, raistuumum

                      Because those are the only people who are operating in that theater.  You tried this on me earlier.  I told you that my eyesight was too bad to fly.

                      The simple fact is that yest this is a military operation, but it a limited operation.  There have been no casualties for NATO from this operation.  Gaddafi's air defense are virtually destoyed.

                      The simple fact is that you have reflexive opposition to war.  That is a legitimate policy preference, but just because someone expresses a different preference that is also legitimate (unlike the Iraq War) you are calling us chickenhawks.  That is not acceptable.

                      I am going to ask you from stop using that term with regards to other posters.

                      "Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure."

                      by nklein on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:23:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The problem is that term and question was (0+ / 0-)

                        used extensively toward republicans, redstaters, and conservatives who supported Bush and his wars.  Isn't what is good for the goose good for the gander?  
                        And no, my opposition to war is far from reflexive.  I've studied my ass off the last four years to learn as much as I can about wars, foreign policies, imperialism, geopolitics, etc.    
                        I have alot to learn yet, but my knowledge level is certainly above 90% of all Americans when it comes to this area.  Maybe you're is too.  
                        But I won't accept the calling of my antiwar opinions reflexive, that's just not true.

                        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

                        by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:28:12 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You have to understand that Bush and his cabal (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          BigAlinWashSt, nklein, raistuumum

                          were actual chickenhawks, who either avoided service or got cushy NG jobs during the draft.

                          And then they turned around and ordered two invasions involving massive numbers of boots on the ground, one of which was extremely controversial even amongst allies, and illegal to boot.

                          The situations here are not even close to comparable.

                          nklein, joe from lowell, and so very many other liberals are advocating for a limited intervention to help a people free themselves and lay claim to their own country.

                          The Arab Spring is about people power, as is the Libyan Revolution.  That's why the video in this diary is so important, as it shows the extent and popularity of the uprising in Libya.

                          As a liberal, I can't help but support the striving of these people to attain their freedom.

                          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                          by Lawrence on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:41:11 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Understand Lawrence. As I tried to explain to MB (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not an anti-interventionist or a libertarian antiwar person, I'm a liberal also.  But I simply do not believe the humanitarian rationale for this action.
                            Thats not saying the Libyan people don't want help or need help, it's just saying I believe the NATO action has a nefarious agenda that could turn out worse for the Libyan people as a whole and the entire African continent.  
                            I think there are better ways to go about either getting rid of Gaddifi or making him change.  
                            And I think we have a worse war criminal walking the streets of Texas, George W. Bush.

                            S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

                            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:52:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There was no other way to get rid of Gaddafi. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BigAlinWashSt, raistuumum

                            That guy will do anything to hang on to power, as he's demonstrated over and over again.  He declares ceasefires, then shells cities.  He continually says one thing, then does another.  And tbh., he's obviously just not all there anymore either and suffers from a severe form of narcissism.

                            I'd be cautious about seeing bogeymen around every corner with this intervention in Libya.  NATO is not the evil empire of Star Wars, but actually consists of a fairly diverse group of mostly democratic and liberal nations.  Do the nations involved in this also have their own motives? Yes.  Does it mean that these motives are always nefarious?  No.

                            That NATO is not a monolithic block can be seen in the fact that quite a few members strongly resisted participating in the Iraq War, despite tremendous amounts of pressure being brought to bear on them by Bush/Cheney.

                            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                            by Lawrence on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 03:01:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cautious and hope for the best. Better to (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Lawrence

                            discuss and debate than to watch American Idol tho. :)  Sometimes we need to give ourselves a little credit even when we don't agree on things.  

                            S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

                            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 03:08:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Then please don't call people chickenhawks then. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          BigAlinWashSt, raistuumum

                          As I said, it is an entirely legitimate policy preference to support NATO's operation in Libya.  When you call people chickenhawks, you insult the poster and violate the policies of this blog by insulting that poster.

                          Moreover, as I pointed out and as Joe demosntrated, this is very different than in Iraq.  

                          "Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure."

                          by nklein on Tue Jun 28, 2011 at 02:48:00 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  actively avoiding is different from not being vet. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      raistuumum, Lawrence

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