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View Diary: Update: Oh Dear God, No. (441 comments)

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  •  Drunk =! unconscious. (9+ / 0-)

    Being drunk by itself doesn't eliminate the possibility of consent.

    You've not only misread what I said, you've just made up out of whole cloth a theory of consent that exists nowhere in the law.

    Pretty impressive.

    •  KBR says she was so drunk she had amnesia (23+ / 0-)

      According to your own link they apparently had a doctor testify that her small stature plus the amount of alcohol they claimed she drank was overwhelming.

      Think before you decide to expose yourself as a rape apologist.

    •  Let me ask you a question (9+ / 0-)

      Did you pass the bar within the last year or two?

      Because your attitude fits perfectly with certain stereotypes we paralegal types have about newly-minted young lawyers.  (The good lawyers outgrow it.)

      "Tu vida es ahora" ~graffiti in Madrid's Puerta del Sol, May, 2011.

      by ActivistGuy on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 09:39:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, she's right, you're wrong. (5+ / 0-)

      In most places, if you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to consent, legally.  Thus having sex with  someone you wouldn't let drive is RAPE in most places.

      Unfortunately in TX, they don't mention being too drunk to consent, though it is the law in most states--unless the man got her drunk

      A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if:...

       (3)  the other person has not consented and the actor knows the other person is unconscious or physically unable to resist;...

      5)  the other person has not consented and the actor knows the other person is unaware that the sexual assault is occurring;
                      (6)  the actor has intentionally impaired the other person's power to appraise or control the other person's conduct by administering any substance without the other person's knowledge;

      Many other states DO have laws that specifically  state that a woman who is legally drunk cannot legally consent.  So in MOST states, it owudl indeed be rape.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 11:21:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I call bullshit (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DollyMadison

        Produce a cite or you're wrong. Being too drunk to drive does not imply too drunk to consent.

        Besides, what if both people are drunk? Who is raping who exactly under your bizarre legal theories?

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 12:08:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I presume (9+ / 0-)

          that it's the conscious person who is raping the unconscious one, not the other way around.

          •  Everyone agrees (0+ / 0-)

            That sex with an unconscious person is rape. This is a question about drunk people who are otherwise able to give consent (hint: it isn't rape).

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 01:53:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I odn't have tiem to look up 50 states. (4+ / 0-)
          5  3. A person is deemed incapable of consent when he or she is:
              (a) less than seventeen years old; or
              (b) mentally disabled; or
              (c) mentally incapacitated; or

          http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/...

          The crime of rape (or "first-degree sexual assault" in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim's inability to say "no" to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called "date rape"), or even when the offender is the victim's spouse.

          http://criminal.findlaw.com/...

          Physical contact is considered unwanted if the victim refused, physically objected or was unable to give legal consent. It is not necessary to show that the accuser physically resisted.
          http://www.flynnowens.com/...

          Consent means permission. Coercion is not the same as consent. Many sexual crimes in Maryland include the term "without the consent of the other person" as an element or condition of the crime. There is no universal agreement on what is necessary for a victim to do or say in order to demonstrate their lack of consent. Some think a simple "no" should be enough, while others think that yelling, screaming and physical resistance should be the standard. Ultimately the judicial system and the courts will decide whether a victim's behavior and/or words constitute the lack of consent in the case they are hearing.

          There are protections for those whose capacity to consent is permanently or temporarily impaired. The terms used and defined in the Maryland statutes are: "Mentally Defective Individual," "Mentally Incapacitated Individual" and "Physically Helpless Individual". Individuals meeting these criteria are considered incapable of consenting to sexual acti

          http://www.rapecrisiscc.org/...

          (5) MENTALLY DEFECTIVE. Such term means that a person suffers from a mental disease or defect which renders him incapable of appraising the nature of his conduct.

          (6) MENTALLY INCAPACITATED. Such term means that a person is rendered temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling his conduct owing to the influence of a narcotic or intoxicating substance administered to him without his consent, or to any other incapacitating act committed upon him without his consent.

          (7) PHYSICALLY HELPLESS. Such term means that a person is unconscious or for any other reason is physically unable to communicate unwillingness to an act

          http://law.onecle.com/...

          “Mentally incapacitated” means temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling a person’s own conduct due to the influence of a narcotic, anesthetic, or intoxicating substance administered without his or her consent or due to any other act committed upon that person without his or her consent.

          http://www.leg.state.fl.us/...

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 12:38:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I am a paralegal. (6+ / 0-)

          I've had a semester of criminal law. I was also a rape crisis volunteer.  My legal theories are hardly bizarre, as the post above proves. You're WRONG, so next time you're considering seducing some staggering drunk girl, don't--because you could find yourself l facing rape charges.

          I suspect it could still be rape even if the male is drunk---in other words, MEN need to take some responsibility for their actions, however hard that might be for you to understand, not just women.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 12:59:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For having a semester of criminal law... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rick Aucoin, DollyMadison

            ...you don't appear to be able to read Maryland's laws very effectively.

            (6) MENTALLY INCAPACITATED. Such term means that a person is rendered temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling his conduct owing to the influence of a narcotic or intoxicating substance administered to him without his consent, or to any other incapacitating act committed upon him without his consent.

            In other words, willingly getting drunk, then agreeing to sex is not grounds for a rape charge.

            Even if one's partner knows that a person would be unwilling to give consent sober and buys them drinks all night hoping that they will give consent drunk, that is still not grounds for a rape charge. Even if the partner knows that having sex would be a bad idea and one will regret it later, it still isn't rape.

            If you can talk and you aren't physically threatened and you agree to sex, it isn't rape. Period.

            People have sex for all kinds of wrong reasons. Being drunk, being lonely, emotional pressure from their partner, peer pressure from their friends, etc. All of these factors do not constitute rape despite being in many cases despicable. If you say "yes", it's not rape.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 02:09:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, we can only pray that you're not on a rape (5+ / 0-)

              jury.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 02:47:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We can only pray you aren't (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DollyMadison

                Considering the question will be asked "did you consent to sex?" the person will reply "yes", and you'll vote to convict anyway.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 02:49:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No. BUT if the girl was so drunk she was (6+ / 0-)

                  staggering, I'd have some real issues. I personally think that if one partner is so incapacitated that they can't drive--they're not capable of legal consent. It's certainly true for contract law.

                  You on the other hand would likely only vote to convict if there was a videotape, neighbors heard her screaming, and there were broken bones.

                  You also seem to think that emotional coercion is okay too. Legally it's not rape but if someone had ever told me "If you loved me, you' would," I'd have stood up  and replied, "If you respected me, you wouldn't whine."

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 03:01:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DollyMadison
                    I personally think that if one partner is so incapacitated that they can't drive--they're not capable of legal consent. It's certainly true for contract law.

                    What you personally think is irrelevant. What matters is the law, and good thing, too, because otherwise you would require those of us who enjoy looking for sexual partners in bars to bring breathalyzers along with us or otherwise have to judge how sober we think the other person is.

                    In reality of course it is everyone's responsibility to monitor their own sobriety, not to have to administer a walk-the-line test to pick up a girl/guy at a local bar.

                    You on the other hand would likely only vote to convict if there was a videotape, neighbors heard her screaming, and there were broken bones.

                    I would vote to convict if there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt that someone had sex against their will or when completely unconscious. Anything else is not rape. I would hope you'd do the same.

                    You also seem to think that emotional coercion is okay too. Legally it's not rape but if someone had ever told me "If you loved me, you' would," I'd have stood up  and replied, "If you respected me, you wouldn't whine."

                    We are only talking about legalities here. Emotional coercion does not fall inside the legal realm. As long as you would not vote to convict under such circumstances that's all I'm really talking about. Emotional coercion is despicable (though it's complex and there are a lot of factors involved in matters of the heart), but it isn't rape.

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 03:38:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You don't know the law. You're wrong, (5+ / 0-)

                      and that your claiming that you do know the law when you don't makes you look like quite the rape apologizing asshole.

                    •  @Sparhawk: you're pathetic (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Euroliberal, esquimaux, ByTor
                      those of us who enjoy looking for sexual partners in bars

                      You seem to have an underdeveloped sense of moral responsibility, of looking out for others ("are you your sister's keeper"?):

                      In reality of course it is everyone's responsibility to monitor their own sobriety
                      You might look up antisocial personality disorder: "a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."  Definition of sociopath: "a person whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience."

                      You're legally misinformed, somewhat disgusting, and I'm starting to wonder if you're a menace to others as well as yourself:

                      proof beyond a reasonable doubt that someone had sex against their will or when completely unconscious. Anything else is not rape.
                      You're not worth any more of my time. Grow up. Learn. Find normal friendships with women. Develop a moral conscience.
                •  Uh, do you want to present evidence of an (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  arizonablue, Tookish, Sharon Wraight

                  instance of when that's been said in a rape trial by the accuser ever?

            •  You need to be taught some lessons (9+ / 0-)

              Sparhawk, your ignorance is appalling, especially for a progressive. But it's never too early (nor too late) to learn. I don't know where you live nor how old you are, so here is just a smattering of examples, about consent, alcohol and rape:

              Perhaps you're still in your teens?  

              "Bottom line, if a girl is intoxicated she cannot consent to sex and you could be charged with rape. It does not matter whether you knew she was intoxicated, it doesn’t matter if you were intoxicated too, all that matters is that she was not in a state of mind to consent and therefore it is rape. If you get a girl drunk or high and then “get together” with her you have committed a sexual assault. Again, it doesn’t matter if you are drunk or high as well. ... Now say you really had no idea a girl was intoxicated and that she truly appeared to be a willing partner, what then? The reality is that you could still be charged with rape if she is able to prove she was drunk or high."

              Or perhaps you're in college?
              "Legally, an individual cannot consent to sex if they are drunk; having sex without consent is RAPE/sexual assault."

              Maybe a graduate?
              "Remember, consent must be given for sex. If it is not given, it is considered sexual assault. Under the influence of alcohol, CONSENT FOR SEXUAL ACTIVITY CANNOT BE GIVEN."

              Still confused?
              "Consent can only be given by a person who does not feel pressured or coerced, and who is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol."

              What do police say?
              "Consent means agreeing to an action freely, voluntarily, and with knowledge of the nature of the act. If you are passed out because of alcohol or drug use, you cannot consent.

              Hrm, but is alcohol a date rape drug?
              "Alcohol is one such drug. In fact, alcohol is the drug most commonly used to help commit sexual assault."

              Maybe it's less serious than 'real' rape? Nope:
              "state law that puts alcohol on a par with date-rape drugs as an aggravating factor in certain sexual assaults. ...  victims who are very drunk during a sexual encounter can be judged incapable of giving consent, triggering a possible second-degree sexual assault charge."

              Maybe it's only in a few states? Nope:
              "Prior to the change, which took effect in June, a victim who had been drinking typically had to be unconscious to be deemed incapable of consenting to sex. ... Wisconsin had been the only state to exclude alcohol as a potential legal intoxicant in rape cases before the law change."

              Maybe not in Texas? Nope:
              "PROSECUTING ALCOHOL FACILITATED SEXUAL ASSAULT. WHAT IS ALCOHOL
              FACILITATED SEXUAL ASSAULT (AFSA)?
              * Victim is too drunk to consent for 1 of 3 reasons [...]
              - Recreational use by victim"
              WHAT IS RAPE? ...
              * Victim too drunk to consent
              .

              Hrm, maybe this is some new-fangled librul invention, just recently, and you're an old-timer?  No, that doesn't fly, either:  

              “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
              pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk so
              that he can gaze on their naked bodies.” -- Habakkuk 2:15 (between 608–605 BC)

              Well, well, maybe the above is the only example, for Texas. Nope. There are 3,000 cites for <rape consent alcohol site:tx.us> on the TX.us domain alone.

              Flowers work better than liquor.

              •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DollyMadison

                Yeah, the next time I'm going to get legal advice I'll make sure I get it from about.com from some teen writer. I notice that your "former About.com Guide" (not "attorney" or "judge") doesn't cite his sources, because they are bullshit. While it is certainly true that "you can get charged with rape if she is intoxicated" it is only because of her initial claim that the sex was against her will (certainly a risk if you had sex).

                "I agreed to sex but I was drunk" will get a rape charge thrown out of any courtroom in this nation, and if you want to cite a lawyer or some law about the matter, we can discuss, but some misinformation from "about.com" isn't going to cut it.

                Ditto your other sources. The "Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Coalition" also has it wrong and is too concerned with making women feel "empowered" to tell them the plain facts of the law.

                For example, let's look at Massachusetts' law:

                Comm. v. Blache, 450 Mass. 583 (2008). In a rape case in which lack of consent due to intoxication is an issue, the prosecution must prove not only intoxication, but 1) that the intoxication rendered the complainant incapable of consent and 2) that the defendant knew or should have known that the condition rendered the complainant incapable of consenting.

                This is basically an impossible bar to achieve and only would apply in cases of actual unconsciousness or extreme impairment (which is what Comm v. Blache was about), not run of the mill "drunk and making bad decisions".

                Additionally, your own .PDF from Texas shows the same thing! It is very, very difficult to prove a rape allegation for someone who is "just drunk": in fact the PDF illustrates the difficulty of precisely this! Proving that alcohol made the victim "incapable of consent" despite them saying "yes" at the time is a virtually impossible task.

                So in short, unless the person in question is either actually unconscious or so drunk that they are effectively unconscious anyway, a rape charge will be virtually impossible to prove if they consented, as it should be.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 03:56:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Law on alcohol impairment varies from state to (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk, Tookish, Sharon Wraight

              state. I actually found a doc that breaks it down by state, Unfortunately, I can't cite the link because it simply immediately links to a download. The site it's providd by doesn't HAVE a link

              In Arizona "“incapable of consent by reason of mental disorder, mental defect, drugs, alcohol, sleep or any other similar impairment of cognition and such condition is known or should have been reasonably known to the defendant,"

              Ditto Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, PA, SC, Washington, Wisconsin.

              Other states have mental defect clauses that aren't clear as to whether it applies to being voluntarily drunk.

              So, we're both right.

              Personally I will NEVER understand why a man would want to have sex with soemone that drunk--but then most women don't find staggeringly drunk men sexually appealing.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 04:04:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DollyMadison
                Personally I will NEVER understand why a man would want to have sex with soemone that drunk--but then most women don't find staggeringly drunk men sexually appealing.

                Oh, I completely agree. It's just that when you're going to put someone in prison for a long time, there's a high bar set for that.

                I mean, are you going to start throwing people in prison because they go to bars looking for moderately intoxicated members of the opposite sex to hook up with? Half of most cities would be in jail!

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 04:09:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It might be an improvement. (4+ / 0-)

                  That was SNARK.

                  My problem is with the guys who deliberately get someone drunk, encourage them to drink when they KNOW the young woman was already intoxicated. THAT is what I am referring to here. I was a Navy Wife for many years and lived on bases. WHen we were stationed in Japan, we noticed a trend. Women just out of A school on their first assignment would come over, and be able to drink for the first time the drinking a g is 20). Guys  7-15 years older would ahng out int he E club and buy them drinks, then  help them stagger back to their rooms, where, with the girl passed out or just so drunk that they could not legally sign a contract, the men would have sex.  They itnentionally got them drunk.

                  And a lot of the tiem the result was pregnancy because the guys wouldn't use a condom and she wasn't planning on having sex, so she wasn't on the Pill (or in the case of a friend, COULDN'T be on the Pill for medical reasons).  If they made it past the firt 3 months, the chances of her getting pregnant were  reduced by a lot. If she made it through 6 months, the were down even lower.  

                  She didn't have a chance of getting an abortion, because military hospitals won't do them. And while Japan has good medical facilities, she'd have to get a translator to help her though the system,which would mean talking to someone at Family Services or in Security then request leave to get the abortion (which has to go up the change of commans, which means EVERYOEN would know), and perhaps pay for it.  If she chooses to go to home, she'd ahve to pay her own airfare, stay at a hotel, and find a clinic.  And she'd have to request emergency leave which means her superviser and everyone else in the chain would know.

                  I suppose I should be grateful that the Navy insists on garnishing wages for child support whent he father is a sailor.

                  The more important question is WHY some statesview soemone too drunk to drive as incapable of conenst while toehrs don't.  

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 04:56:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DollyMadison

                    Whose fault is all of this?

                    When you tell these stories, you unwittingly feed into misogynistic viewpoints because you are making the unspoken assumption that young women well over the age of consent are/were incapable of making their own decisions and would fall for a silly line and some drinks.

                    While yes some of that behavior is awful, it isn't rape. And might it actually be that many of those girls entering nightclubs and drinking profusely are actually looking for sexual partners? Now, perhaps it would not be wise for them to be doing so and it certainly may not be a Good Idea, but it's silly to think that a lot of the women going and drinking profusely in nightclubs weren't looking for sex.

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 07:10:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you need to grow up (5+ / 0-)

                      This is really offensive:

                      it's silly to think that a lot of the women going and drinking profusely in nightclubs weren't looking for sex.
                      This verges much closer to "she's asking for it if she goes to clubs and drinks" than I would ever want to read on dKos.

                      It makes me wonder if you are overcoming some personal issues (rejection by women, sexual frustration, accusations of unwanted sexual attention or harassment that you feel were false, an inquiry by an ombudsperson, or etc.).

                      I also wonder if you have a sister, or how you'd feel if it happened somehow to your own mother. Maybe they weren't paying attention to how strong the punch was, summer day, hot, thirsty, drank too much at a picnic or concert, felt liberated, danced, chatty, accepted a ride somewhere, ... etc.

                      Most women do not "look for sex" with strangers. At clubs or anywhere else. This may come as a big surprise to you, but for most women who are reasonably attractive, "finding sex" is not difficult. Women are more often looking for companionship, or acceptance, or affirmation of their self-worth, or a longterm relationship.

                      •  I can tell you from my own experience (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sharon Wraight, Matt Z

                        after being widowed at 34, I could have gotten laid a lot more than I chose to. And I didn't see any of my friends, most of whom, were 7-10 years younger (I did my partying at SCA events) having any trouble either. In fact I can say that I NEVER went to a bar looking for sex.

                        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                        by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 08:09:02 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        DollyMadison
                        This verges much closer to "she's asking for it if she goes to clubs and drinks" than I would ever want to read on dKos.

                        Of course it doesn't and you know it doesn't.

                        It makes me wonder if you are overcoming some personal issues (rejection by women, sexual frustration, accusations of unwanted sexual attention or harassment that you feel were false, an inquiry by an ombudsperson, or etc.).

                        Lol. None of that is true, but if it were, it would not change the truth of what I am saying. Ad hominem is always the last refuge of the intellectual scoundel.

                        I also wonder if you have a sister, or how you'd feel if it happened somehow to your own mother. Maybe they weren't paying attention to how strong the punch was, summer day, hot, thirsty, drank too much at a picnic or concert, felt liberated, danced, chatty, accepted a ride somewhere, ... etc.

                        More emotional claptrap. If a relative of mine got drunk and had (consensual if drunken) sex with someone, I might be furious. But I would not accuse anyone of rape, because rape never happened.

                        Most women do not "look for sex" with strangers. At clubs or anywhere else. This may come as a big surprise to you, but for most women who are reasonably attractive, "finding sex" is not difficult.

                        Lol. "Most women" may or may not, but I assure you that many people in many nightclubs of both genders and at many different levels of attractiveness are looking for precisely that, for many different reasons. It is naive of you to think otherwise.

                        Women are more often looking for companionship, or acceptance, or affirmation of their self-worth, or a longterm relationship.

                        Perhaps, but a lot of women, drunk and sober, choose to have sex with people for whatever reason after going home with them from a bar. Some women serially have sex with many men.

                        The fact is that you cannot generalize about anyone. It is a reasonable assumption that women who go to bars, drink heavily, behave sexually with men at the bar, then go home with them and actually have sex, are doing so because they want to do so, not because it is some male plot against them or because males have seduced them in some evil way.

                        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                        by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 08:17:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  It does not verge on that! (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sparhawk
                        This verges much closer to "she's asking for it if she goes to clubs and drinks"

                        What it says is that women often go to bars with the expressed understanding that alcohol, drunkenness and sexual activity will likely ensue during that evening.

                        No one said that the woman is asking for unwanted sexual interactions!

                    •  I think you have a very strange idea of misogyny. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sharon Wraight

                      Really.

                      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                      by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 08:06:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        soros, DollyMadison

                        It's strange to you because you don't understand the viewpoint that women are perfectly capable of making their own sexual decisions even under the influence of alcohol, as are men. I consider women every bit as intelligent and capable as men, which is why when they agree to sex it is only fair that they be taken at their word.

                        When you see men and women both consuming a lot of alcohol, you see the men as a bunch of menacing sexual predators while you see the women as innocent victims of the evil men's sexual schemes. The men are always setting up the women for checkmate while the women sit around powerlessly and cluelessly.

                        This point of view is offensive to both men and women.

                        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                        by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 08:24:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I see men--a small portion of them --as (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sharon Wraight, DruidQueen

                          sexual predators, yes.  I see other men as enabling them because they buy into the idea that it's okay to go hunting drunk women for sex.

                          And I STRONGLY believe we need to teach our boys EFFECTIVELY that "no" means "no"and that id she hadn't given you an enthusiastic yes, you need to clarify with her. Because, as I showed in a different post, in SOE states, if she's drunk, you're guilty of rape. Not ALL states, not even most of them--but about 8 of them.

                          I am sick and tired of men acting if other men's unethical behavior is OKAY. It's not.  And I think we're doing a pisspoor job of conveying to our young men that just because they might not go to jail for having sex with a drunk woman (or man), it's still reprehensible to do so if that person is too drunk to drive. ANd our wink-wink nudge-nudge culture which regards men getting sex as "scoring" no matter how they do it. CHarlie Sheen's charatcer on Two and a Hal Men is NOT meant to be a role mdoel (nor is Charlie SHeen for that matter0--but a lot of men seem to think he is.

                          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                          by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 09:01:57 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You certainly bring up some good points (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DollyMadison

                            I agree with some of it and disagree with others. There are women who behave as you describe as well, after all.

                            However, at the end of the day, none of this has anything to do with rape, which is sex with someone who either has said "no" or is extremely impaired. Promiscuous behavior by both males and females is not really applicable to that.

                            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                            by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 09:06:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DollyMadison
                            I see other men as enabling them because they buy into the idea that it's okay to go hunting drunk women for sex.

                            This is just a value judgement on your part. Women do the same thing all the time. There is nothing wrong with going out and trying to find members of the opposite sex who are willing to have sex with you.While it isn't necessarily my cup of tea, there is nothing morally wrong with it, as long as your opposite number is OK with it.

                            Like I said, are drunk women somehow incapable of making decisions, or always make worse decisions than drunk men? Is that your point?

                            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                            by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 09:22:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Uh, the state of Maryland's website disagrees (4+ / 0-)

              with you:
              "About one in every 20 female college students is raped each year, and more than 72% of those women are raped while they are too intoxicated to give consent (2004)3."

              •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DollyMadison

                "Too intoxicated to give consent" means effectively unconscious, it doesn't mean "drunk and making bad decisions". It devalues the experiences of real rape victims to associate people who have actually been assaulted to people who drank too much and made a bad decision. If you say "yes" to sex, you've consented, even if you are moderately intoxicated.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 07:04:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  What the fuck does MARYLAND have to do (0+ / 0-)

              with this? Jeebus, isn't the age of consent in New Hampshire like 12?

              What other obscure and irrelevant factoids can you come up with?

              Out in the west Texas town of El Paso...

              by falina on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 06:32:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Okay. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tookish, Sharon Wraight, Debby, irishwitch

          "Although laws vary by state, generally, a victim intoxicated by alcohol or a "date-rape" drug is incapable of giving legal consent:"
          http://www.texas-criminal-defense-lawyer.com/...
          And, btw, you're a creepy hypocrite for harassing her by standards- in the name of rape apology- that you haven't bothered with upthread.

          •  The law says different (0+ / 0-)

            Being intoxicated is not sufficient.

            So intoxicated that one can't give consent is required.

            As another lawyer's blog explains,

            Physical contact is "unwanted" if the victim did not legally consent to such contact. Examples including saying "no", physically objecting and being intoxicated or incapacitated to the point of not being able to give consent.

            Not simply intoxicated.

        •  As soon as you provide a cite for your false rape (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tookish

          accusations you mentioned earlier.

          'We are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration!' - Hillary Clinton

          by pot on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 05:25:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, that is a whole lot of raping going on. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk

        Are people aware that they aren't supposed to have sex if they need to take a cab home?

        "How do you get everything you want in life? Want less." Uncle Bob

        by 2dimeshift on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 04:05:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sadly, NO> (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharon Wraight

          And men don't get that even if they can't be charged with rape, having sex with a girl so drunk she can't drive is pretty damned low.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 09:03:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Men and girls? Hrrrm.... (0+ / 0-)

            How low is it if the guy is too drunk to drive? I'm not saying that either is not low. Are you suggesting that women don't want to go have some fun drinking and then have some other fun later? (Intending all of this before they are drunk?). Seems like only one side bears the moral burden in your scenario.

            I think drinking and sex is stupid. It's not nearly as stupid as rape, but in the case of drinking both sides bear some culpability.

            "How do you get everything you want in life? Want less." Uncle Bob

            by 2dimeshift on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 06:42:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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