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View Diary: Obama Admin. Continuting to Aid Jihiadists to Further the War State (31 comments)

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  •  Hmmm... (5+ / 0-)

    Your assessment of the 'Arab Spring' is, imo, fairly misguided. This seems due in large part to what I read as your reduction of 'democracy' to 'Western-style democracy.' While I think it is true that we are unlikely to witness in the fullness of time a Western-style democracy in Tunisia or Egypt or elsewhere, I think we will witness the emergence of a form of government which will correspond largely to the will of the people and will balance effectively some of the religious/secular tensions. Will it happen overnight? Of course not. Might there be setbacks? Of course. But they'll get there...

    And while I'm not a journalist, I did in fact manage to speak with many impoverished, rural and (sadly) illiterate Egyptians in January and late February about their by-and-large optimistic aspirations for their country. I look forward to speaking with them again when I return later this year and see how their perspectives may or may not have changed.

    As for any diminishing popularity of the US in MENA, I can only say it's hardly a surprise. But the presumption that this will lead to an increase in Jihadism, rather than lead to institutional arrangements in which the US, Europe and the arsenal of Western-driven neoliberal economic institutions play a much reduced part, remains to be seen.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 12:04:58 PM PDT

    •  regarding literacy rates (0+ / 0-)

      it has improved across the region, in some cases despite opposition from the ruling regime
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      The problems are employment and poverty unrelated to literacy and education rates, where regimes enjoy incomes of billions while their populace struggles in poverty,  For example Mubarak's family and cronies are supposed to have socked away billions in foreign banks while average Egyptians struggled to get by relying on government bread subsidies to survive

      •  I think this position... (0+ / 0-)

        is sorely naive. In a society where repression through a military totalitarianism exists for decades the notion that the old guard is going to go away anytime soon is a mistake. I don't have the optimism to believe, like you, that they will get there. I hope that they do, but I can't imagine that the government's of the western world will allow that to happen. A truly democratic Egypt doesn't alight with our government's interests.

        "To shut off subversion is to shut off peaceful progress and to invite revolution and war." - I.F. Stone

        by Alex Malecki on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 02:57:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think they are going away and (0+ / 0-)

          for more than 4 decades of advocating various sorts of social change, I have always recognized that putting the old guard against a wall is necessary at times and recognize that if the status quo remains embedded that change is difficult.
          However at the same time, the French Revolution or if you prefer the Russian Revolution, while in both many aristocrats died, far more peasants or sans culottes died.
          If the ME is to achieve democracy on their own terms in their own time, then education with poverty eradication is essential. especially in consideration of some of these countries' revenue.  

          For example change is coming to Saudi Arabia; it is inevitable given the stresses already present on the country; it is just a matter of when it gets here.  While SA may be successful in keeping the lid on in Bahrain, it cannot send troops to all of the countries undergoing change; in Egypt and Tunisia, they appear to be using their money and connections to the military to influence things behind the scenes but the question is how long is this an effective strategy

          •  Which is... (0+ / 0-)

            why I fear that inevitably the U.S. will be drawn into a regional conflict in a way similar to WWI where Saudi Arabia ends up pulling us in due to our economic interests in maintaining something like the status quo.

            "To shut off subversion is to shut off peaceful progress and to invite revolution and war." - I.F. Stone

            by Alex Malecki on Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 07:18:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I think this position... (0+ / 0-)

      is sorely naive. In a society where repression through a military totalitarianism exists for decades the notion that the old guard is going to go away anytime soon is a mistake. I don't have the optimism to believe, like you, that they will get there. I hope that they do, but I can't imagine that the government's of the western world will allow that to happen. A truly democratic Egypt doesn't alight with our government's interests.

      "To shut off subversion is to shut off peaceful progress and to invite revolution and war." - I.F. Stone

      by Alex Malecki on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 02:40:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whoops. (0+ / 0-)

        The above comment of mine was meant as a response to the comment by angry marmot.

        "To shut off subversion is to shut off peaceful progress and to invite revolution and war." - I.F. Stone

        by Alex Malecki on Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 02:42:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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