Skip to main content

View Diary: This Stuff Could be at Stormfront... (199 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  We advocate free speech (13+ / 0-)

    But advocating "Free Speech" doesn't mean advocating "hate speech".

    Why anyone would need to use a site that promotes racism and bigotry is beyond me. Shouldn't someone be able to make a point without referring to a site that does that.

    If one feels that you are limited in your sources because one can't use bigoted sites to support one's claims then wouldn't that be telling?

    DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

    by volleyboy1 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 09:38:59 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Well... (0+ / 0-)
      But advocating "Free Speech" doesn't mean advocating "hate speech".

      Sure it does.  Can Robert Spencer be quoted here?  Can Pamela Geller be quoted here?

      They both deserve to be sitting in jail this very minute for the hate speech that inspired the mass murder in Norway.  The killers own words cite Spencer and Geller, among other Americans, as his inspiration.

      Yet you don't see me writing diaries wanting to ban mention of them.  Or of their websites.  Or speeches.  I believe that the good people of Daily Kos are smart enough to make their own decisions on what is appropriate and what is not.  I do not believe that Kossacks should be subject to some list of approved sites for sourcing.

      If you look at my comment history, you will find that I have never used that site.  And I never would.  For the reason that Mets highlights in this diary.  But see, I didn't need Mets to point that out to me.  Its common sense.  

      By doing all that you guys have been doing lately to push this agenda of getting sites banned, you are saying that you don't think Kossacks are smart enough to make that decision for themselves, and/or to punish those who do use obvious hate sites as sources.  I disagree.

      Apparently admin agrees though.  Not a surprise.  Theres been a lot of anti-democratic sentiment in the world lately...why should DKos be any different?  Bah.  I'm going to bed.  Post all your hateful remarks, call me an antisemite...whatever.  I'll read them in the morning.

      Terror has no religion.

      by downsouth on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 10:13:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would have no problem with Pamela Geller (12+ / 0-)

        being banned as a source (I can't comment on Spencer because I don't know who he is but I will look him up).

        You may not use that source (and I would have been surprised if you did - take that as a compliment) but others do.

        But see my comment about Geller.. I don't need to use her as a source to make my points. Further, not only do I not need her but if I had to use her I would think my whole argument was in trouble.

        I get what you are saying regarding Free Speech but I see no reason to use hate sites to make cases for me. Further, if I saw that happening I would very much start to wonder about what I am believing.

        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 10:18:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would. (0+ / 0-)
          I would have no problem with Pamela Geller being banned as a source...

          I would.  I am willing to trust Kossacks to deal with anyone using such a hateful source, and of course I would deal with them myself through donuts and comments.  I have no need or desire for some official ban on that or any other source.  Its a slippery slope, volley.

          Robert Spencer runs jihadwatch.com and has written many books and articles spewing his hatred of Islam and Muslims.  He was cited 64 times by Norway killer Breivik in his "manifesto" as one of his main influences.

          Terror has no religion.

          by downsouth on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 06:30:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All an "official ban", as you term (7+ / 0-)

            it, means is thaits use as a citation on other than a disparaging manner is grounds for HRing the comment.  I really am perplexed by your insistence that this is some form of censorship.  It is merely the community recognizing the sorts of citations which are acceptable.  The Arden y of your defense of this "principle" seems misplaced, particularly from one who provides such a strong voice for the rejection of hate speech in your excellent diaries which bring readers to a better understaning of the misunderstandings of Islam which breed hate.

            Equality - I spoke the word as if a wedding vow, But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

            by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 07:04:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't know... (0+ / 0-)

              that my defense is all that ardent.  I'm just trying to get the point across that this is a slippery slope.  If Mets was arguing here for the ability of Kossacks to HR sources they deem racist, I'd rec this diary.  As long as such HR's were accompanied by an explanation, it would be a great thing that respects the intelligence of Kossacks and allows us to filter out the worst hate speech, such as what is highlighted in this diary.

              But that is not what he's asking for.  He has specified a particular site, not hate sites in general.  And for the record, MB's judgment on this means far more than that Kossacks can now HR those comments that use this source.  It means that use of that source can get you suspended and/or banned.  That makes it an "official ban" in my mind, hence my use of the term.

              How is banning such sites any different than banning a book?  The reasoning for banning a book is that its content is somehow damaging or dangerous to a segment of society, or to society as a whole.  The reasoning here is that this source is damaging or dangerous to a segment of society.

              I wrote the following on my blog, concerning the censorship by Cartoon Network of South Park creators and cartoonists Matt Stone and Trey Parker, who had received death threats from extremists due to their irreverent depiction of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

              Censorship invariably leads to more censorship.  Speech must be free, not just when we like what is said, but also when that speech is anathema to everything we believe to be right and good.  Perhaps even more so, in the latter case.

              Hatred exists everywhere.  The answer to that is not to suppress, it is to reject.  Drag it out into the daylight and beat the crap out of it...with your words.  Not tuck it into a dark corner and pretend it doesn't exist.

              Terror has no religion.

              by downsouth on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 08:32:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, but you are wrong about Mets. (7+ / 0-)

                What he has in mind, from my reading, is simply an acknowledgement of one particular site amongst many others which are per se HRable when citing in a non-disparaging way.  The same that we would HR citations to Islamaphobic sites, homophobic sites, freerepublic., stormfront, et. al.  

                We are not banning the sites.  We are banning the citation of those sites as evidence of anything other than their hatefulness.  The distinction is important.  When people post a link to something on a hate site in order to back up their argument, they SHOULD be HR'd, because they are using hate sites to back up their arguments.  There are plenty of non-hate sites out there that provide valid arguments.  One shouldn't need to go to the hate/CT/RWloon sites in order to make a case on dkos..

                Equality - I spoke the word as if a wedding vow, But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

                by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 09:51:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  ... (0+ / 0-)

                  You:

                  When people post a link to something on a hate site in order to back up their argument, they SHOULD be HR'd

                  Me:

                  If Mets was arguing here for the ability of Kossacks to HR sources they deem racist, I'd rec this diary.  As long as such HR's were accompanied by an explanation, it would be a great thing that respects the intelligence of Kossacks and allows us to filter out the worst hate speech, such as what is highlighted in this diary.

                  I'm done.  With this thread.  Though I'm beginning to question whether participation on this site makes sense for me anymore.

                  Terror has no religion.

                  by downsouth on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 12:03:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe downsouth needs a list (8+ / 0-)

        of all the folks who aren't smart enough to figure out for themselves that Mondosewer is a filthy cesspool of anti-semitism.  Unfortunately, he might find that the list is comprised mostly of people from Team Just Us.

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 10:30:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And for starters (9+ / 0-)

          here are two users who promote Mondofront on their blogroll:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...
          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

          by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 10:44:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Great catch Paul! Let's purge them! (0+ / 0-)

            have you, or has anyone you know, advocated for the violent overthrow of the United States government?

            Global warming is the inconvenient truth, nuclear power is the inconvenient alternative.

            by eigenlambda on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 04:12:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nice strawman (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mets102, zemblan

              but the reality is, those people are promoting an obviously anti-semitic hate site, one which the moderators here have deemed unacceptable as a source (unless one is using it as an example of an obvious anti-semitic hate site).

              In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

              by Paul in Berkeley on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 07:22:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  sounds like you're advocating for a purge (0+ / 0-)

                you got your ruling that you can HR people for posting Mondoweiss links.  So now you're going to push that ruling and try to purge two longstanding members of the community?

                This has gone beyond stopping anti-Semitism.  It's rapidly becoming about a few guys on a power trip.  But, maybe this is just recentism, but I don't think it's just you guys.  I think over the last few months there's been an uptick in the amount of calls for bans and people getting banned.  DailyKos didn't use to be like this.  There wasn't always this amount of gleefully watching bannings.

                Global warming is the inconvenient truth, nuclear power is the inconvenient alternative.

                by eigenlambda on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 07:58:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I'm not advocating for a purge (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Mets102, zemblan

                  but downsouth made a comment about people being smart enough to figure out that Mondofront was an unacceptable hate site, and I'm pointing out two people who clearly aren't smart enough to figure that out.

                  Now, if you want to make the case that rabid anti-semitism and the people who promote it should be welcome here, tolerated here...go for it.

                  In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                  by Paul in Berkeley on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 08:41:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Sounds like you need to lay off the caffeine (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Mets102
                  sounds like you're advocating for a purge

                  Actually, sounds we're advocating for an armed revolution, coast to coast, so that we can install ourselves as emperor-of-the-week. You'll know it's my week when reading "Ulysses" becomes mandatory for having a driver's license.

                  Now, is there anything else histrionic you'd like to add?

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site