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View Diary: Utøya Killer's lslamophobe Manifesto: The Attack on Multiculturalism Reaps a Bitter Harvest (141 comments)

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  •  I can't help feeling we're either (20+ / 0-)

    a) Talking at cross purposes


    b) Speaking in code

    If you're saying there is every reason to be afraid of Islamic extremism,  then we might have a proper conversation.

    I personally think that fear is over-wrought, over-elaborated and generalised to the point of uselessness (just like anti-semitism)

    In my view very few conflicts are just about 'two sides' - they're usually multipolar, with a majority in the middle getting polarised or targeted by those on the extremes.

    And of course the victims of this particular brand of Islamophobia happened to be Norwegians on the side of liberal tolerance.

    "It is only for the sake of those without hope that hope is given to us." Walter Benjamin. More sane debate on the Moose

    by Brit on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 07:10:12 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  My initial comment stands... (0+ / 0-)

      as does my belief that it takes at least two sides to make a conflict.  The extremists feed off one another.  Non-extremists also care about these issues, but use the political system rather than violence and other forms of coercion.

      •  what extremists on the other side? (10+ / 0-)

        what extremists on the other side?
        in Norway?

        Muslim extremists?

        Trot them out!

        Just be careful not to let your ability outrun your talent.

        by KenBee on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 08:07:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not that I want to get into this, but... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TXdem, erush1345, sandbox, evergreen2

          from 2010:

          This summer, Norwegian police arrested and charged three alleged al-Qaeda members suspected of having links with those suspected of plotting to bomb U.K. targets and the New York subway system. Police have named the suspects as 39-year-old Mikael Davud, a Uighur who became a Norwegian citizen in 2007; Shawan Sadek Saeed Bujak, a 37-year-old Iraqi Kurd; and Uzbek national David Jakobsen, 32 years old.

          Norwegian police allege that from August 2009, the men had been gathering hydrogen peroxide and other material intended for bombmaking and that their targets included Jyllands-Posten, the Danish paper that published the Mohammad cartoons, and the Chinese embassy in Oslo.


          Norwegian police have said that radicalization continues to occur in the country, with the main task being to collect money and transfer it to extremist organizations abroad. "Some individuals in Norway provide active support to extreme Islamist players abroad who have a local or regional agenda," Norwegian police said in a 2010 threat assessment.

          "As long as the foreign players maintain their local focus, it is highly improbable that their Norwegian support networks will pose a direct threat to Norway. However, the threat from extreme Islamists in Norway may increase if their contacts abroad change their strategy to incorporate targets in Europe."

          Let's not pretend that extremists are in one corner only.

          •  This proves the fact but not theory (7+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            terrypinder, mkor7, raistuumum, Brit, Ahianne, sb, capelza
            Hidden by:

            From this we know there are some extemists in Norway, that the police arrested some would be terrorists and are doing their job to monitor and investigate extremeist organizations.

            Your basic hypothesis is misapplication of Newtonian Physics. If every political action depends on and equal and opposite reaction now extermism would exist beause A would be waiting for B and visaversa.

            I agree that generally political polarization can result in a feedback mechanism that amplifies the problem but irrational extermist ideologies tend to be cooed-up in the brains of extremeists themselves.

            I'm probably to the Left of most Dems but that is the product of my values and reason not because Tea Baggers and their ilk exist, and I'm hardly an extremist. If some Right-wing crackpot percieves me as the enemy and wants to blow up a building because I exist that is thier thing not mine.

            What about my Daughter's future?

            by koNko on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 10:08:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not interested in theoretical laws... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              that do not apply, but what exists on the ground and in practice.

              There are some crackpots way to the left of you, and not all Tea Baggers are extremists.  

              Nothing I said intimated that you are extreme under any circumstance.

              Indeed, I may actually be to the left of you, but that does not mean I cannot see the obvious, or ignore it, especially as this is not a matter of physics.  

          •  the hell you don't want to get into it (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mkor7, raistuumum, Brit, sb, capelza

            you've been itching to pull this into the discussion the whole thread.

            •  That is not true... (0+ / 0-)

              or are you me?  I could say you are the one looking for a fight, but I am not in your mind.

              Why are you so bothered when no one else seems to be?

              Does actual discourse or other perspectives really irritate you so much?

          •  i think you're full of shit. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mkor7, raistuumum, Ahianne, sb, capelza

            Norway arrested these folks, and is in the process of sending them home.

            Most of Norway is irreligious.

            The terrorist who attacked Oslo, went far and beyond ANYTHING Muslims have ever done in Norway.

            "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" -Prof. Farnsworth

            by terrypinder on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 11:20:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Think what you want. (0+ / 0-)

              The person asked me to:  "Trot them out!"  So I provided evidence.  I was in Oslo at the time.  People were shocked.  But you can take it up with the Oslo police!

              I was not even talking about Norway, per se, but extremism.  That is why I said it was not where I wanted to go with the discussion.  

              Of course he went far beyond.  What a dumb remark you make.  He went far beyond what ANYONE has done!  I was making no comparison, as there is no comparison, and find it silly that you would do so.

      •  Wasn't the "other side" the excuse of (11+ / 0-)

        every extremist in history?

        •  So? Does that make it less so? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Why is there such a problem with the concept that extremism breeds extremism?

          •  Yes, actually. (11+ / 0-)

            It perpetuates a mentality by which any action is justified, and fear becomes the chief motivator.

          •  Because (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mkor7, raistuumum, Brit, Ahianne, sb, capelza

            extremists breed just fine with no other side.  Or, if necessary, they invent them.  If the Jews don't blow anything up, then blow something up and blame it on the Jews.

            Fishgrease says "GBCW," Senilebiker says "Kudos to Mike for rattling the cage."

            by happymisanthropy on Sat Jul 23, 2011 at 09:57:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In that context I agree (0+ / 0-)

              Extremism toward Jews is an exception to what I said, not only because they are a tiny minority everywhere except Israel, but aggressive behavior by Jews toward others, outside the Arab-Israeli context, seems nonexistent.  The extremists therefore need memes not just false, but hate based.  There is no excuse for anti-Semitism under any circumstance whatsoever.

              Most extremism involves ideologies and religions other than Judaism, such as Christians and Muslims, or right and left.  There are not enough Jews as a worldwide people to constitute a real threat.  Other groups create alienation by seeking to impose their way, not Jews.  They may have some clout because they outperform the norm, but it is minute against the backdrop of billions.  In most ways, they are observers of these larger battles, though they are often drawn in, not of their own accounting, and react accordingly.

              Hope you understand what I mean.

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