Daily Kos

Faux warblogger indignation

Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 02:17:49 PM PDT

Tom Tomorrow put up this cartoon making fun of useless warbloggers.

One veteran warblogger took offense, and accused Tom of the usual anti-American b.s. People like Instapundit piled on. Their argument was that at least one or two of them served, thus Tom's cartoon was slandering them all -- even those who didn't serve and were simply chickenhawk warbloggers happily condemning our men and women to death by fighting an unecessary war we cannot possibly win.

Or something like that.

Such silliness. Truth is, people like Glenn Reynolds and Den Beste and the vast majority of chickenhawk bloggers -- heck, of all bloggers -- did not serve. The vast majority of Americans did not serve.

But fact is, most Americans aren't frothing at the prospect of sending our men and women to die for vague notions of "reshaping the middle east" or WMD fabrications. Those that do deserve every last bit of contempt that can be mustered.

It's noteworthy that one of the few conservative warbloggers who served -- Tacitus -- has also been the most realistic about the situation in Iraq. To most of us who served, our men and women in uniform aren't mere toy soldiers, pawns in a geopolitical chessboard. They are human beings, perhaps even people we served with. Friends and colleagues. With parents, wives, husbands, and children. They are not mere chattel to kill off in pursuit of neocon and warblogger fantasies.

There is no better way to support our soldiers than to wish them alive. Not dead. And the best way to keep them alive is to keep them out of war.

It's a tough concept for the neocon mind to grasp, I know, but it's true.

(More here.)

  • ::

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 196 comments

  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

    i liked that you used the term "geopolitical chessboard." i take it you watched clark on buchanan and press? :)
    http://channeledbymodem.com/realaudio/press_rtsp.ram
  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (1.85 / 7)

    Oh, right, because the actual function of the military isn't to ever fight in combat, but for people to be paid, housed, and educated by taxpayers without contributing anything to the economy, the infrastructure, etc.  A big government work program where the work is all useless makework.  Okie doke...
    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (3.25 / 4)

      No, the function of the miliatary is to protect this country. Not to get involved in a risky and ill-thought-out overseas adventure at tax payer expense. Do you not see the difference between "necessary sacrifice" and "needless waste of life"?
      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

        I consider the progress described in my recent diary on Iraq to be worth the sacrifice.  And before you ask: I'd vote for a universal draft, and take my chances.  But no, I wouldn't volunteer under the current system, any more than you'd pay for universal health care by your lonesome.
        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

          My brother's in Baghdad.

          What's your sacrifice?

          There are 400 families across the US that think it wasn't worth their sacrifice to let Bush steal Iraq's oil.  How many more?  You don't care, as long as it's not yours.

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

          I consider the progress described in my recent diary on Iraq to be worth the sacrifice.  And before you ask: I'd vote for a universal draft, and take my chances.  But no, I wouldn't volunteer under the current system,

          In other words, the effort in Iraq is worth the loss of human life, just as long as your life is not at risk. How noble.

          thx,
          Eric

          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

            No, I'd be willing to roll the dice on my life too--as long as everyone else was taking equal risk.  Again, I point out that this is hardly different from other Democrats--including me!--who vote to raise other people's taxes to pay for things like national health care, but don't say the taxes should only be raised on those who vote Democratic.
    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      "without contributing anything to the economy?" do you have any clue where the recent boost in the GDP came from? i'll give you a hint: GE's doing really well right now.
      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

        I don't have a degree or economics or anything, but common sense tells me that building cars or consumer goods or roads is better for the economy and for society than building weapons, and paying people to practice shooting them, instead of engaging in productive work.
        •  Amen, fellow slacker. (none / 1)

          As much as we're spending on the military, I would have been more surprised if the economy WASN'T growing at 5%-7%.  Considering this, anything less than 4% growth could be considered a recession on the home front.
        •  George C. Bush (none / 1)

          well as long as this country's run by people who own defense companies, we can count on many more military operations to keep the "boom" going.
        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          Too bad the GDP isn't a reflection about how good the economy is doing.  For instance, the higher health costs are, the better the GDP, because the medical industry is making more money.  That's all it reflects: how much money people are making, not how much they are spending.  There are other indexes which account for other aspects of economic livelihood, such as quality of life, employment rates, environmental quality, etc., but the GDP is not one of these indexes.  It's about as accurate in determining the economic health of the country as the stock market, i.e. it is only a slice of the pie -- a generally representative one, but still only a sampling.  

          It's like trying to show how imaginative someone is by giving them an IQ test.  It only reflects one aspect of one's mind, namely, the part that is easy to quantify.  Economic health is difficult to quantify, but as far as I'm concerned only the unemployment rate is the only number that really means anything in the average Joe's life.  The economy might suck ass, but if everyone's got a job, it's not really that bad; on the flipside, the economy might be doing well, but if a lot of people are unemployed, who cares?

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (4.00 / 2)

      Actually, the function of the reserves is clearly not to be called up to act as police in some country where we decide to push out some tin-horn dictator so our buddies can make big, big piles of money.

      "They signed up" is not a sufficient reason for anything.

      If the military is nothing more than a contractual arrangment which says the misled and delirious majority demands blood (I would now point out that the U.S. admits to inflicting more civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan than Al-Queda did in New York and Washington), then why doesn't the government live up to its end of the obligation and pay hazardous duty and family separation pay?  Why doesn't it live up to its obligation and provide sufficient equipment, supplies and ammunition to the troops?  Why are discharges and tours of duty being extended beyond what was agreed to in favor of "military necessity."

      These are soldiers, but in the BEST tradition of the U.S. they are also family members, workers, business owners and professionals.

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      Oh, right, because the actual function of the military isn't to ever fight in combat, but for people to be paid, housed, and educated by taxpayers without contributing anything to the economy, the infrastructure, etc.  A big government work program where the work is all useless makework.  Okie doke...

      Close.

      The actual function of the military is to go overseas and house, educate and police foreign nationals who contribute nothing to our economy, infrastructure, etc.

      Hey, I enjoy "Karate Kid" style fantasies as much as the next guy, but even Mr. Miyagi will tell you that you don't go around looking for bullies to fight.

  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

    I wonder if any of the warblogger attitude has to do with computer strategy games? I know from playing Warcraft or Starcraft that I felt no compunction about swarming enemies with tons of "troops" knowing that I'd take 90% losses.
  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

    The purpose of our military is to defend our country, not invade others.  Your petty sarcasm is getting tiresome slacker.
    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      Then we can follow Kucinich's program and massively cut the Pentagon's budget--because we certainly don't need anywhere near the military we have to defend our borders.  Hell, we could probably get rid of whole branches altogether: a few aircraft carriers and nuclear subs are all we'd really need, plus maybe a few strategically located Army bases.
      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

        I actually do support a drastic cutback in military spending. Most of it is wasteful, and just a giant giveaway to military contractors.

        If I may, I would recommend reading Dr. Helen Caldecott's book "A New Nuclear Nightmare : George W. Bush's Military Industrial Complex"

        Very, very eyeopening.

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          I would support a big change in the way the military is funded, though not necessarily a reduction.

          Still, I applaud your honest position.  However, since none of the candidates but Kucinich (and maybe Clark) is proposing to reduce military spending, my point still stands as regards anyone who supports other candidates.

          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

            Actually, the only two candidates who have even mentioned it are Clark and Kucinich, probably because they're the only ones who can afford to.

            I don't have a sense of purity when it comes to my candidate, I'll take the best of what I can get here.

            That having been said, once you realize that we are spending more on the military than the next 10 countries combined, and what most of it is going for, and then start lamenting what that money COULD be used for, its hard to feel any other way. Its a no brainer that we need some defensive capabilities, but it would just take a simple shift of how we deal with the rest of the world to make it a safer place.

            Cutting the military budget by 70%, which is what I advocate, shipping a bunch of the money to the UN to help establish and maintain international peace keeping forces, and the using the rest we could give free college to all of our citizens, feed every single hungry person in the western world, and actually start working towards some goal that would give this country some meaning again.

            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

              Oddly enough, I don't believe that we are really that far apart fundamentally (you'll probably disagree, LOL).  I think instead of wasting all that money on a military that sits around being bloated and useless (or using it to support right wing dictators, as we've done in the past), we should use it to topple human rights abusing dictators.  Basically, go around the world beating up bullies and defending those who don't have the power to help themselves.
              •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                I think what the difference boils down to is that I don't want America doing that. I don't want us to be the human rights cops, especially given our somewhat abhorrent human rights records. I want an international force, with huge amounts of US dollars being sent to it, along with the rest of the world, to take care of those issues.

                We're not living in a world that can sustain one country swinging its giant...missile around anymore, telling everyone else how to live. Its nice to think of us as the sherriff in town, and taking out the guys in the black hats, but the reality is far less romantic. The reality leads to 9/11 and worse.

                •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                  Yep. We're hardly in the position to be the world's moral police... morally or militarily. There are so many countries that are worse off than Iraq was under Saddam, but of course, they don't have oil, so fuck 'em.

                  We'd end up having to increase spending on the military and on homeland security, because many folks will hate us more than they already do, and many non-Christians being forced to basically bend to "our God" will decide (as some already have) that it is time to "destroy the beast".

                  Our job is not to go around the world toopling dictators when it serves our leader's financial interests. That is not out moral obligation. If you want to save lives, take a look at AIDS in Africa, which has killed more innocent people than Saddam ever could.

                  threehundredandtwentyelectoralvotes

                  by theoria on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 03:13:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                  So should we not have "told the Nazis how to live"?  I mean, where do you draw the line?  I agree that we shouldn't nitpick--"your system isn't just like ours so we're going to invade"--but when the human rights violations are universally acknowledged as egregious, I think that's quite different.
                  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                    Radically different situation. As I recall it was, essentially, the entire "civilized" world vs the axis powers.

                    Also, please note, times have indeed changed. The balkanization of different factions has led to a situation wherein, under your moral model, we would need to invade about 40 countries, non-stop, just to keep up.

                    I want to make it clear. I have no problem with the world at large engaging, and dealing with countries who are mistreating their citizens, or other members of our world's community. I have a problem with the US often-times unilaterally deciding that we should do this.

                    In essence, this is the only logical reason to have such a large military, and brother, its killing us. We dedicate so much of our resources, brain power, and human resources to the military, we HAVE to come up with reasons to use it. And in the end, I would rather have a society dedicated to improving our people, and consequently, the rest of the world, than being a corrupt police officer.

                    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                      Do you really think there are 40 countries in the league of Saddam's brutality?  I'd wager more like ten.  But even still, I don't think all of them would fight.  After we showed we meant business, they'd give up--especially if we offered the dictator and ruling elite safe passage to exile (tough not to punish them, but worth avoiding a war).
                      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                        Its hard to say, because I'm sure we'd quantify that number differently, insofar as Saddam level brutality; I would be mindful not to compare Saddam to Hitler, however.

                        The problem with the rest of your analysis lies in the fact that we live in four dimensions, and not just 3. For every country you may intimidate into toeing the American way of thinking, 2 more might spring up, or 10, or whatever. Our actions have consequences outside the ones we're neccessarily predicating our actions upon.

                        That having been said, it still doesn't qualm my concerns about America, who hasn't exactly been a stalwart of democracy and human rights over the last hundred years...well, actually ever. Exporting what we choose, over the will of other countries makes us a target, and is a losing proposition in the end.

                        An effective, multi-lateral organization designed specifically for this job would add legitimacy to deal with problems much more effectively than the US acting alone.

                        If you're really concerned about the other countries out there, it seems like you would want the best solution possible for their problems, right? Consider the difference between a group of countries applying sanctions, dealing with them diplomatically, or, god forbid, militarily, or just the US doing this. One seems to have clear cut advantageous in efficacy, and repercussions towards us.

                        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                          I would be totally for a kind of multilateral organisation with teeth.  But I don't see anything like that now.  I am a big Francophile, speak French fluently, have taught my son and wife to speak it, etc...but I honestly think Chirac did not operate from principled opposition--rather, he wanted to preserve his corrupt dealings with Saddam.

                          And I totally agree about our history.  If we homeschool our children (or even if we don't), we will be sure to make Howard Zinn's People's History of the US one of their major texts.  But I believe that's all the more reason to start using our military power for good, as we did in Haiti, should have done in Rwanda, and started to do in Somalia but then backed off.

                          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                            Okay, you've read Zinn. Now I really don't know what to think of you...as soon as I try to get a fix on where you're coming from, you lob out a curveball that tags me in the eye. That having been said..

                            No, of course it would have to have teeth. If you look up above, Im advocating sending vast amounts of wealth to an international organization, and disbanding all but a tiny percentage of nations private armies, only what is needed for defense of borders is kept. That would have teeth, save money, be more effective in dealing with international crises in this ever-shrinking world, and stop America from going through this bully/target cycle we seem to enjoy so much.

                            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                              LOL, I like that I gotcha on a curveball.  And I do realise that (despite there being millions of prowar Democrats) I'm probably one of the very few, or even only, people who read and like Zinn and support this war.  (Though Christopher Hitchens might be another.)

                              How, realistically, would you get all these countries to give up their militaries?  And how would you force places like Myanmar or Indonesia to shape up?

                      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

                        Whether there are 40 regimes as brutal as Hussein's is beside the point. You just can't attack another country on that basis. It's particularly suspect when you have no track record of opposing horrendous regimes. You've got to be under attack or at least imminent attack. With all the other lies and distortions having dropped away, we are left with "he's a bad guy" as an excuse.

                        "He's a bad guy" wasn't the reason given for going to war, for good reason. The reason given was that he was an imminent threat, which was patently ridiculous. He had no possible means to attack us, and had never threatened to do so.

                        Before we got down to "he's a bad guy" as a reason, we had to slide through a raft of other lies: that having WMD constituted an imminent threat, that there was an al-Qaeda connection, etc, etc. Now we're reduced to saying we went to war because he was a bad guy.

                        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                          Yeah, I don't think "he's a bad guy" gives us the legal right to attack another country, according to international law. Then, when other people flaunt the international laws of war, we cannot bitch about it. Negating the validity of those international laws is another sad by-product of our ill-conceived operation in Iraq.

                          threehundredandtwentyelectoralvotes

                          by theoria on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 07:36:30 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                    We didn't go to war in order to "tell the Nazi's how to live".  We went to war in Europe during WWII because Nazi Germany declared war on us after we had declared war on their ally Japan (whom we had declared war on because they attacked our base at Pearl Harbor).  Not a word about telling people "how to live" was uttered.  Nor was any blood shed over that.  Though much blood was shed.

                    There are no parallels anywhere to the contemporary situation.

                    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                    by a gilas girl on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 04:51:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                      We didn't go to war in order to "tell the Nazi's how to live".

                      But you should have. And earlier, too.

                      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                        But you should have. And earlier, too.

                        Because war is fun, and everybody should try it.  It's one of the few situations in international relations that always turns out exactly the way you expect it to, and in which the good guys always win.

                        So start a war of your own this weekend, and bring the kids.  It's the right thing to do, and a tasty way to do it.

                        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                          Are we thinking about the same WWII? One very bad guy came scary close to winning. Another did win in much of Europe. Are you really saying that the only reason to try to stop them was that it might be fun?
                          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

                            I'm saying that when the entire world is at war, and you're sitting on a military that was still outfitted for World War I, you make decisions about who to stop and when a little less casually than you seemed to suggest, no matter how nasty they are.

                            Ideological wars are like elective surgery.  Don't trust any doctor who glosses over the risks, even if they're minimal.  You can die on the table during liposuction, too.  And although the risk appeared small going in, dead is dead.

                      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

                        Sorry, nobody went to war for those reasons.  They went to war for all the reasons states and nations always go to war: land and resources.  If you are arguing we should have entered the war earlier, I would agree, if you are arguing we should have entered the war because the Nazi's were evil; the jury's still out on that one for me.  At the time we entered the war, there was no ongoing genocide in the 3rd Reich, the Final Solution was begun after we entered the war, so there would have been no compelling reason even on humanitarian grounds, to enter the war, according to international law.  You just don't solve humanitarian crises militarily.  

                        As much as we like to rewrite the story, the genocide of millions of Eastern and Southern European Jews was not a reason why any of the powers foughta war against Hitler.  

                        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                        by a gilas girl on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 06:28:07 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                          Well, to be fair, I did say "should." As for humanitarian crises, I'm not sure how many of them have been solved, militarily or otherwise, but regardless of actual motivation it was military force that put an end to Hitler and kept Stalin from taking all of Europe. Or at any rate that's what I've gathered from the handful of books I've read on the subject, not learned by any means.
                          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                            Yes, you did say "should" but I'm not sure I could agree (even in retrospect) that we "should" have, its such a complicated picture.  

                            And while military force did put an end to Hitler, I'm less certain that it was military FORCE and not the development/threat of nuclear war that kept Stalin from taking "all of Europe".  But I think its important to note that it WAS military force that enabled him to take HALF of Europe.  

                            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                            by a gilas girl on Sat Nov 15, 2003 at 01:24:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                              I hesitate to get into an extended dispute about this, because I really am an amateur, and not a particularly apt one. But you've misunderstood me on one point: I never meant to refer to the Cold War or nuclear deterence. I was thinking about the possibility that if the western front had collapsed in 44/45, Stalin might have ordered his troops straight through Berlin, and on to the English Channel. I for one am glad he wasn't given that opportunity.

                              There was a larger issue, more relevant to current discussions. Decisions to go to war are, by and large, motivated by a desire for land and resources, as you said. Does this always mean we should oppose them? I see two complications.

                              One, the decision not to go to war is generally motivated by the same sort of desire -- witness the U.S., before Pearl Harbour, presumably also France, recently. Actually, one of the things that really trips me up on sites like this is the idea, often encountered, that the U.S. shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq because it didn't serve American interests. There were many reasons why it was a terrible, shameful decision to invade Iraq, but that isn't one of them.

                              Two, if we start out thinking that what the various governments (and their financiers) are going to do will be determined only by their desire for geopolitical gain, then I don't know why we bother criticising them. If the whole endeavour of analysis and opposition is to have a point, then we have to assume that these things aren't automatically settled by material calculation. You now actually have in power a gang motivated almost entirely by naked geopolitical ambition. The PNAC are fucking terrifying, worse than almost any imaginable alternative. (Though if they get their way with the constitution and so on, the imaginable alternatives are going to get much worse.) If it is silly or idealistic to talk about what states should do, then it is even more so in the case of the current American administration. If (as has been said repeatedly, yawn) SlackerInc is a pawn for accepting an anti-Saddam case for invading Iraq, then we should all just give up, we are irrelevant anyway. Maybe we are irrelevant, but that's not the position you want to start from if you are going to oppose the current gang.

                              (Apologies if this is rambling or otherwise incoherent, in my time zone it is very, very late. Still, always a pleasure to read what you have to write.)

                        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

                          "As much as we like to rewrite the story, the genocide of millions of Eastern and Southern European Jews was not a reason why any of the powers foughta war against Hitler."  
                          by a gilas girl

                          And, the victorious allies of the west achieved what Hitler did not; a final solution to "the Jewish problem". They foisted the problem off onto the Palestinians with the creation of Israel, and secured a grateful enclave of western influence thrust into the Arab heartland.

                          Though this solution too has turned out to have its problems also.

                          Additionally, the way history has unfolded, Europe through the creation of the European Union has achieved what was Hitler's most basic dream of uniting Europe-, though he envisioned that under German hegemony, of course. And indeed, it is not outside the realm of possibility that even Russia will one day be brought into that union, another one of Der Fuhrer's ambitions.

                          A rival for U.S power ambitions anyone?

                          There is a certain underlying impetus to "union" in the world, no doubt, it seems to me. But what a torturous route of petty clashing rival national interests it is taking to get there, maybe even slowing and making more painful the advance. But, in the contemporary world, that's the competitive instinct that lies at the heart of capitalism, it appears to me.

                          If there were only a way of backing off a distance, and mitigating those rival "national and imperialist" interests, and focusing instead on respect for each others turf, and leaving people over time to resolve their own problems, and putting the emphasis, rather than on rival "national" armies to conquer hearts, minds and turf, on putting in place equitable-, again equitable, mutually beneficial economic relations and trade in their place. (As opposed to the inequitable, exploitive, cheap labour, conflict creating and Third World indebting economic relations which seems so characteristic of current global "capitalist" norms. Which is the real seedbed of this "terrorism" issue.)

                          The real problem in its way, of course, by way of really resolving this problem of the prevailing global economic and political system, is the "popular" level of understanding. Were that in a place other than it is, it would then be possible to seriously talk of brushing aside these petty national and imperialist interests, and their "ideological champions".

                          Short of that, it seems to me, we're stuck like a constipated turd where we are. And going round and round after our collective tail, looking for a place, and trying to figure out how to have a shit.

                      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                        Exactly!!!

                        If Hitler had not honoured his agreement with Japan, do you really think it would have been right to stay out of war with the Nazis?!?

                        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                          Unfortunately what you're not getting is countries don't go to war over reasons of right or wrong.  If you think we went to war to liberate the Iraqis you are incredibly naive.  If you think the American public really gives a shit about the Iraqi people then you are wrong.  No one in this country has had trouble sleeping for the last 10 years since the last Gulf war-- no one really cared.  

                          The failure of your argument is you're incorrectly attributing noble and loft goals for our reasons for invading Iraq.  Unfortunately motives are often just as important or more important than the actions they precipitate.  

                          The truth is there are probably a hundred other dictators and strongmen in the world who are "bad".  We neither have the manpower nor the money to overtthrow them all.  And what's more even if we had the intention of "liberating" everyone in the world, we WOULD NOT be appreciated for it.  

                          This is not some fairy tale, this is the real world: people in other countries trust our motives and well they should.  What's more, even if we actually had noble intentions, we'd still be hated because people get mad when outside powers interfere with their lifestyle, no matter how bad it is.  Also a lot of the places in the world are not ready culturally to accept a democracy.  

                          The neocon idea that you can install a working democracy through force is the height of naive bullshit.  People in other countries need to be ready to win freedom and democracy for themselves, otherwise it will not take root and will inevitably fail.  

                          Any life given trying to force the world to democracy is a wasted life.  If you want to live in a fantasy world, that's fine, go enlist and throw your life away on a pipe dream-- don't support send others who thought they were defending THEIR country's freedoms to pointless deaths.  

                          Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

                          by Asak on Sat Nov 15, 2003 at 09:02:11 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                            By the way I wholeheartedly agree with cutting our military spending to 1/4 what it is now, cutting the vast majority of worthless military research, recalling our troops to OUR borders and doubling their pay.  Let Japan defend Japan.  Let South Korea defend South Korea.  Having our men and women over there serving as cannonfodder for other countries is unacceptable.  We're being taken advantage of and that's all there is to it.  

                            Don't think for a moment Japan minds spending only 1% of its GDP on the military.  Don't think for a moment they mind not having to put THEIR people's lives on the line.  And don't think for a moment that they'll hesitate to turn around and out compete us economically.  We're such suckers...

                            Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

                            by Asak on Sat Nov 15, 2003 at 09:08:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                            "If you think we went to war to liberate the Iraqis you are incredibly naive."

                            Well, fortunately I don't think that--and never did.  I explicitly stated in this thread that unfortunately, Americans wouldn't go for a war that didn't contain something in it for them, selfishly speaking.

                            "If you think the American public really gives a shit about the Iraqi people then you are wrong.  No one in this country has had trouble sleeping for the last 10 years since the last Gulf war-- no one really cared."

                            Again, no argument here.  I'm not claiming to represent the majority view of America.  I'm representing my view.  And my view is that Iraq was not a binary issue.  It wasn't "Either we should trust the Bush admin about WMD or we should staunchly oppose any military effort to overthrow Saddam."  There are other positions one can hold, and mine is one of them.  

                            To oversimplifiers like (unfortunately) most of the posters here, that is incomprehensible--they still cling to this binary view--so, since my view doesn't match theirs, I must be a Bush lover.  And of course nothing could be further from the truth.  It just happens that Bush did one thing that was on balance better than not doing it, regardless of the dishonesty and incompetence involved.

                            "The failure of your argument is you're incorrectly attributing noble and loft goals for our reasons for invading Iraq."

                            No, not doing that--see above.  The failure of your argument is that you made assumptions about my argument which don't hold water.

                          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                            "The failure of your argument is you're incorrectly attributing noble and loft goals for our reasons for invading Iraq." says Asak.

                            Indeed. And a good post, Asak.

                            It's the motives AND  the method. (Though I do recognize the right of true self defence.) The dream of a greater united Europe wasn't wrong. It turned out to be bang on. The problem was the motive, which was fundamentally the creation of a German Reich (Empire)and to destroy a perceived "Communist" threat to capitalism in Germany and elsewhere at the time, and access to the resources of the U.S.S.R for resource poor Germany. And the method sought to achieve that grand, kind of PNGC vision (Project for a New German Century) was a war of conquest over "inferior" states, peoples and ideologies.

                            Which came to about the same result as the U.S. vision quest, for about all the same reasons and with the same military methodology, can be expected to achieve. (All wars of interference and conquest for imperialist motivations "invite" military alliances against.)

                            Meanwhile, in its own good time postwar, in conditions of peace, with the maturing of the preconditional economic and political conditions, and an understanding of its importance in the "popular" level of understanding, European Union did occur. Not only that, the evolving relationship between Europe and Russia is such that there is an ever increasing flow of oil and other Russian resources into Europe as well, much to the benefit of who? Well, Germany for one.

                            (There just may be a relevant moral here.)

                            Additionally, the mantle of "Reich" creation having been taken up by the U.S.A. is also driving Europe and Russia together politically.

                            And one can realistically expect that, in due course, this new U.S. Reich will likewise be dealt with by other "allied powers", be they states and/or "armed bands of resistance", described by some as... You guessed it: terrorists.

                            It's like I say, there is a certain impetus towards unity at work in the world, arising from an underlying mutual dependance. It's just that we keep missing the forest for the trees, and what are the appropriate conclusions which need to be drawn, in terms of the global behaviour of "some" national states.  

              •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

                I am sympathetic to the idea of using military force to prevent human rights abuses, but not without a clear cost/benefit analysis(1), careful consideration of other options, and broad domestic and international support.

                In other words, I want to make sure we will actually make things better, that we have no better choice, and that we will not just be acting as bullies ourselves.

                I am also concerned that using our military in this way, may be unfair to our troops, and unconstitutional as well.

                (1) I'm talking about the cost in terms of lives lost and human suffering, not monetary cost.

                •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                  "I am sympathetic to the idea of using military force to prevent human rights abuses..." writes synykl.

                  Only, it would probably be preferable that it be that state or combination of states, which is itself without "sin", which casts the first stone. And that ain't the U.S.A., for mf sure. What with its legacy of slavery, ongoing civil rights abuses, union busting, more people in jail per capita than any other state (if I remember my stats correctly), similarly per capita state sanctioned executions, Guantanamo, as but a brief list off the top of my head.

                  Better, unless one country invades another, I think, if we're going to formulate a "general rule", that peoples be left to resolve the problems of their own societies, in their own good time. And for those exceptions to every rule which doubtless exist, along with courses of action, that it be left to the decision of a revamped, popularly democratized and represented United Nations.

                  And absolute "purity of motive" may never come to exist, but it would at least be a more improved and equitably based motivation, than that of the U.S. or any other state acting alone on its own "suspect" motivation.

            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

              American Public: "Sweet, we're gonna that awesome awesome peace dividend we were promised since the cold war's over!"

              Military Contractors: "Oh fuck...uhh...George? Do something...."

              George Bush Sr. "Uhhh...hey, lookie here, its time for gulf war one! Ratchet up the machinery again folks, we're goin in"

            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

              Cutting the military budget by 70%, which is what I advocate, shipping a bunch of the money to the UN to help establish and maintain international peace keeping forces, and the using the rest we could give free college to all of our citizens, feed every single hungry person in the western world, and actually start working towards some goal that would give this country some meaning again.

              AMEN Marius!!!
              mwjeepster

              Dissent is Patriotic

              by mwjeepster on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 05:02:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

            waste, not "spending." and it's going to take someone with some big cajones to attempt that--in other words, it won't come from someone who's helped companies like halliburton benefit from no-bid contracts.
      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

        or we can support clark's plan and internationalize the iraq effort while keeping US control of the military operations there, while dispatching more troops to find Osama (the real person behind 9/11) and to repeal the tax cuts from the upper 2% of americans so we can actually pay for border and homeland security. what seems like the wisest choice?
      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (4.00 / 4)

        Then we can follow Kucinich's program and massively cut the Pentagon's budget--because we certainly don't need anywhere near the military we have to defend our borders.  Hell, we could probably get rid of whole branches altogether: a few aircraft carriers and nuclear subs are all we'd really need, plus maybe a few strategically located Army bases.

        You know, I've always been surprised by this kind of mentality.  I read some of your blog Slacker and I for one think it's good to have differing opinions.

        Now, as to the thought that it is somehow wrong or immoral to make overall cuts in the United States military budget.  To you I refer to the following:

        On the military in general, the USA spends more than the rest of the G7 countries combined

        The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2004 is $399.1 billion
        The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2003 was $396.1 billion.
        The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2002 was $343.2 billion.
        The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2001 was $305 billion. And Congress had increased that budget request to $310 billion.
                   This was up from approximately $288.8 billion, in 2000.

        The US military budget is more than six times larger than the Russian budget, the second largest spender.

        The US military budget is more than 37 times as large as the combined spending of the seven "rogue" states (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria).

        It is more than the combined spending of the next 20 nations.

        The seven potential "enemies," Russia and China together spend $123 billion, 31% of the U.S. military budget.

        Global military spending has declined from $1.2 trillion in 1985 to $809 billion in 1998. During that time the U.S. share of total military spending rose from 31% to 36% in Fiscal Year 1999.

        In 1997 alone, half of USA's aid was related to military aid/trade -- and most of that was to countries that are already wealthy, like Israel, or Turkey (which has often been one of the largest recipients of US military aid and has often been criticized for its human rights violations and crackdowns). Compare that to very poor countries like Sub-Saharan African nations that received very little aid.

        Furthermore, check out these figures in military spending (in billions of dollars) for 2002:

        United States     399.1
        Russia*      65.0
        China*      47.0
        Japan              42.6
        United Kingdom  38.4
        France      29.5
        Germany      24.9
        Saudi Arabia      21.3
        Italy              19.4
        India              15.6
        South Korea      14.1
        Brazil*      10.7
        Taiwan*      10.7
        Israel      10.6
        Spain              8.4
        Australia      7.6
        Canada      7.6
        Netherlands      6.6
        Turkey      5.8
        Mexico      5.9
        Kuwait*      3.9
        Ukraine      5.0
        Iran*              4.8
        Singapore      4.8
        Sweden      4.5
        Egypt*      4.4
        Norway      3.8
        Greece      3.5
        Poland      3.5
        Argentina*      3.3
        United Arab Emirates*      3.1
        Colombia*      2.9
        Belgium      2.7
        Pakistan*      2.6
        Denmark      2.4
        Vietnam      2.4
        North Korea*      2.1
        Czech Republic  1.6
        Iraq*              1.4
        Philippines      1.4
        Portugal      1.3
        Libya*      1.2
        Hungary      1.1
        Syria      1.0
        Cuba*      0.8
        Sudan*      0.6
        Yugoslavia      0.7
        Luxembourg      0.2

        *=2001

        So you know what? Give me a break.  That 400 billion (not including such things as 20 million extra just to Halliburton alone) could buy a lot of nice doctors, schools and clean affordable places to live for the f------g citizens of this country instead of Hellfire missiles to shoot into empty warehouses in Baghdad.

        That's my two cents.

        Peace

        Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

        by Soj on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 04:51:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          Soj, I don't think I've said this enough. You fucking rock.
        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          mega-dittoes

          threehundredandtwentyelectoralvotes

          by theoria on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 06:12:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          YES!!!

          Thanks so much - see you at Netroots Nation!

          by Terri on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 08:37:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          Thanks for the compliment!

          I agree, if we're not going to use the military to liberate the oppressed, we should spend a lot less on it--I wasn't just being sarcastic.  But I'd prefer the difference be used for foreign aid, not for Americans at home.

          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

            how pro war are you.  What do you want to do with North Korea.  How many countries do you want to invade.

            Why do you think the result is right.  How do you know that things don't get worse?  Have you budgeted it?  I don't mean that to be picky, it's not yours to budget, but have you considered the cost.

            Cost/risk/reward.

            Why do you think humanitarian goals can be accomplished through war?  

            These are the questions I wonder.

            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

              I think we should take on North Korea if we can stop them from nuking us.  Or we should have done it before they got that capability.  Clearly once a country gets that deterrent, they protect themselves no matter how horrible they are.  In the case of N. Korea, it should have been an especially high priority to prevent them from getting a nuclear arsenal because they sell arms to terrorists.

              I am not just "prowar" generally, though.  I was not for the original Iraq war (unless they followed up and supported the rebellions, which they did not), not for the Grenada invasion, etc.

              Why don't I think things can't get worse?  First off, when you're ruled by a brutal dictator like Saddam, it is damn hard for it to get worse.  Note that the Executive Director of Amnesty International told Newsweek "Amnesty International did not oppose the Iraq war...we applaud the removal of a thug like Saddam Hussein."  Take a look at my diary entry "Good news from Iraq" and see if you don't think things are steadily getting better for Iraqis.  The contrast in the doctor they interviewed before and after the war is particularly instructive.

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          "That's my two cents."  by Soj

          Worth at least a dollar on merit. :) Good post!

      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

        Slackerinc

        Your positions, beyong being hipocritical, seem based on ignorance. Or perhaps watching too many rambo movies.

        You neglect to document this "progress in iraq". Despite right wing spin (as usual) dominating the American airwaves the world press gives a completely different picture. One of american troops locked up in enclaves venturing out only for patrols and strikes. One of a very advanced country taken back to the early 20th century and left there. One of criminals running entire cities when the US military isnt actually present..

        Youd vote for a universal draft (reading between the lines) in the hopes that You wouldnt be drafted but that others would have to serve in order to fulfill your ambitions. You neglect to mention what need there is for a draft unless your desires are an american empire.. which i think its clear they are.. so long as Your blood isnt at risk.  Cowardly.

        -snip- we could probably get rid of whole branches altogether: a few aircraft carriers and nuclear subs are all we'd really need, plus maybe a few strategically located Army bases.

        Apparently youve been reading too much Tom Clancy altogether.  "Defending our borders" isnt actually the job of the military. It is the job of the INS, local and state police, et al. If however you meant defending the US from invasion.. it would take a considerable amount more than "a few aircraft carriers and nuclear subs" etc. You should perhaps read a little history and find out why we have the Interstate system. We need considerably more than a few thousand men with m-16's and a couple (sitting duck) aircraft carriers. We need considerably less than we have now (try 200 billion a year or less budget).

        I was going to refute your posts line by line but i dont think its worth the time. I do suggest however you study history and perhaps sign up for at least the national guard before you start pronouncing brilliant chickenhawk theories

        I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

        by cdreid on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 05:32:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          (1) I hate Rambo movies.
          (2) Never read a Clancy novel or saw a film based on it (I prefer Dave Eggers, thanks)
          (3) Considering that nuclear subs would give us the capability to nuke anyone who invaded us, I disagree with your assertion about the military.
          (4) See my diary about "Good News in Iraq" for evidence to back me up on that subject
          (5) Have a nice day.
  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

    Tacitus also was able to see the humor in the Tomorrow comic when he held it up to the Rall ones he loathes.  I see you dropped his link.  I kind of miss the old days when the dKos and Tac communities would mix it up some (dries tear).
  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

    I forget, did Bush serve?

    John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

    by MRL on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 02:29:41 PM PDT

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 1)

      He serves Satan.

      "How do you ask a man to be the last to die for a mistake?" -John Kerry, 1971 but what we needed to hear in 2003/2004

      by Demise on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 02:32:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      enlisted in the TX Air Nat'l Guard to escape viet nam.  because of family connections, skipped to the head of a long waiting list to get the slot.  was trained as a pilot.  didn't show up for mandatory medical exam (which included a drug test), flight status revoked.  went AWOL for 1 yr.  was released 1 yr early.

      i dunno if that counts as serving.

      We declared war on terror--it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui. (jon stewart)

      by jb in nyc on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 02:37:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (3.66 / 3)

    The meta-blogosphere does get pretty tiresome. Frankly, I could care less what some jackasses thought of TT's latest cartoon, anymore than I could care when they assert "Too bad you will loose next Novimber!!!"

    That's why I post here. There's a certain level of intellect required to have a discussion, and traipsing around in right-wing nutjob land is not the way to find it.

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      Marius, while I more or less agree with you I would say that the response to TT's cartoon just adds a few more copies of "Huck Finn" to the censorship book-fire the Right wing is building.

      Any statements from the Left, cartoon or otherwise are going to be strutinized, misrepresented and attacked for "anti-Americanism", disrespect or "weak will" in the face of our opperations in Iraq.

      We ain't seen nothing yet.  

       

      "How do you ask a man to be the last to die for a mistake?" -John Kerry, 1971 but what we needed to hear in 2003/2004

      by Demise on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 02:39:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (4.00 / 4)

    I usually like Tacitus too, but sometimes I just have to stop and shake my head, and wonder why he got this reputation as the level-headed respectful conservative. I honestly have to believe that there are much more level-headed respectful conservatives out there; they just don't get linkage from Instapundit.

    Let's leave the MEChA thing aside and point to a post on Pandagon where Tacitus posted a few comments.  The post was about a right-wing coup fantasy wherein many Democratic senators and a majority of the Supreme Court are assassinated. (Why a coup is necessary when the Republicans already control every branch of the federal government is beyond me.) Jesse wonders what kind of person would write something like this.

    Well, here comes Tacitus and his "faux-naive condescention" to raise the hypothetical question: if a liberal did this, would you all think he was being reasonable? Well, okay, fair question, but I don't think so; years of reading left-wing blogs and opinion sites and I can't think of an example of anyone threatening mass murder.

    Oops, too late; for Tacitus, a hypothetical question is the same as a factual assertion. "Plenty of people would definitely give a pass to this guy if he were anything but a conservative Christian."

    Isn't this the same logic used to defend suicide bombers? Moral equivalence for me, but not for thee?

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

      -Anne Coulter

      "How do you ask a man to be the last to die for a mistake?" -John Kerry, 1971 but what we needed to hear in 2003/2004

      by Demise on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 02:45:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (3.50 / 2)

    "There is no better way to support our soldiers than to wish them alive. Not dead. And the best way to keep them alive is to keep them out of war."

    Keep the soldiers out of war? No offense, Maros, but that's asinine. The military is for fighting wars at the orders of the commander in chief. That's why the miliary exists.

    As for Tom Tomorrow's cartoon - very funny, but c'mon. That's like saying your committment to the anti-war cause was moot because you refused to become a human shield in Iraq in protest of the war.

    Simply stating that all war supporters should join the military is high on rhetoric, but low on substance.

    It's as hyperbolic as war supporters sayng that if you don't support the war, then you are merely a Saddam supporter. (Their basis - anti-war supporters share the same sentiment as the former Iraqi leader.) I think everyone here would argree with me that the neo-con "love it or leave it attitude" is ridiculous.

    In closing, there are plenty of good Democrats like myself who supported this war and will still be backing our nominee next year.

    •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

      Great post!  Glad to have some company here in the blogosphere.  (In "real life" nearly half of Democrats--39%--still support the war, but you'd never know it online.)
      •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

        (In "real life" nearly half of Democrats--39%--still support the war, but you'd never know it online.)

        39% is closer to 1/3 than 1/2.  Big difference, wouldn't you say?  It's all how you spin it, isn't it, Slacker?

        And the number will keep dropping as the situation continues to deteriorate.

        •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

          It's four-fifths of the way to half, and 20% more than a third.  But hey, I gave the actual number so people can decide for themselves.

          In any event, surely you won't deny that it's an underrepresented (and worse, widely castigated) population here.  Yet you'll need our support to have any chance next November!

          •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

            Are you saying that dems are underrepresented at Kos?

            Did you "help" in 2000?

            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

              Or by "it's" do you mean dems who supported the war?  

              Do you think those dems are going to vote for Bush because of their stance on the war?

              •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                I sure hope not, but it doesn't help when the antiwar Democrats act like we are traitors, or we smell, or whatever.  I'm voting Dem no matter what (unless Lieberman is the nominee); but I can't speak for other prowar Dems.  In any event, you shouldn't take us for granted or treat us like crap.
            •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

              I'm saying prowar Dems are underrepresented at Kos.

              And I sure as hell did help in 2000!  Why would you think otherwise?  I was part of the GOTV effort (and I refused to take pay for it, even though they offered) that helped elect Gov. Holden (who later posed for a photo with me) and kicked John Ashcroft out of the Senate.  (Unfortunately we didn't quite deliver MO for Gore, or we would have succeeded fully in putting Ashcroft out of work!)

              •  Re: Faux warblogger indignation (none / 0)

                I can understand why you could have been pro-war back in February, March, April, even May.  You were convinced that WMD's existed or Iraq was a threat, imminent or otherwise, to the US.

                Not now though.  If you still think the war was justified, I don't understand you at all.

                •  My actual reasons for supporting war (none / 0)

                  No, I never supported the war because of WMDs or a threat to the US.  I consider those self-centered justifications that were unfortunately probably the only way Americans would sign on.

                  I supported the war for the sole reason of liberating the Iraqi people from Saddam's tyranny.  This is not a rationale I adopted as an afterthought, but one I've held for over a year.

                  Here's my original prowar piece that started my blog (I had an op-ed piece in favour of war in the local alternative press months before this, however):

                  http://slackerinc.blog-city.com/readblog.cfm?BID=23435

                  This one quotes Jonathan Chait's "Argument for Bush Hating" (he supported, and still supports, the war too ya know):
                  http://slackerinc.blog-city.com/read/307000.htm

                  And here's a good little summary of my stance (I'm Alan Thomas, in case you couldn't tell, LOL):

                  http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A16816-2003Mar23&a mp;a mp;notFound=true

                  •  Re: My actual reasons for supporting war (none / 0)

                    I think we're finding in Iraq that just knocking off some real-bad dictators and setting something better up is easier said than done. As Iraquagmire worsens, I urge you to consider the feasibility of the project, no matter how morally desirable it might appear.
                  •  Re: My actual reasons for supporting war (none / 0)

                    I supported the war for the sole reason of liberating the Iraqi people from Saddam's tyranny.

                    Did they ask us to? No, really.

                    I hate my kitchen. The cabinets were built by somebody's drunk uncle, and I have no counter space, no cabinet space. But if you came to my house and hacked up my nasty-ass old cab