Daily Kos

Let Me Try Again

Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:12:54 PM PDT

A lot of times I have to restate my premise when it becomes clear to me that my audience is not understanding what I was trying to say.

I was taking a new antibiotic last night that apparently has a peculiar side effect similar to prednisone: it lights up the brainpan, making you  wakeful and aggressive and sleepless. I was buzzin'!

So anyway, to restate my thoughts regarding Dean's Confederate flag error:

The way to regain poor white Southerners for the Democratic party is not by telling they are stupid dupes of the Republican party's racialist tactics, but the same way you induce a wild cat to come up on the porch so you can take him to the vet to get his shots.

You put out a saucer of milk (health care). You sweet-talk him, in a soothing voice, about all the nice things you can give him if he'll just come up and take little drink (show him how his kid will benefit educationally). You sympathize with him about how cold it is out there in the barren yard all by himself (job losses). You reassure him that those mean, fat junkyard dogs (CEOs and Wall Street predators) won't be able to get him if he comes inside the warm little nest you've made here in this box with the piece of hamburger at the back. You pet him and tell him he's a pretty cat, a clever cat, and that he has nothing to fear from you.

What you DO NOT do before you've got him penned up and purring over his nice meaty Democratic meal is show him the syringe or in any way remind him that there is a guy in a white coat who is waiting behind the kitchen door.

You DO NOT grab his whiskers and get into his face and scream, "I know what you're doing out there in the yard with those dogs, and you're wrong and you're a bad, stupid cat to believe what those rotten canines say. Okay, I know you can't help yourself because you're too stupid to figure out your own best interests. You don't know that you have to get these shots because you're just an ignorant cat and you've allowed those bad dogs to fool you. But I'm a smart human and I know what's good for you, so I'm going to tell you what your interests are and what you should be doing. Now GET UP HERE ON THIS PORCH!!"

That, whether he meant it or not, was the subtext of Dean's "brave" and "upfront" message to the Democratic party. Dean was, unfortunately, speaking to several different groups with those remarks:

1) liberal Dems who, like him, seem to believe that the Confederate Flag folk (using that as shorthand, of course) dislike black people only socially, "just because," and that they are somehow too stupid to see that they have common economic issues with blacks. These Dems think that all the Democratic party has to do is point out the common cause and the poor whites will come flocking back.

and

2) Confederate Flag folk who think it is insanely arrogant for the Democratic party, of all people, to say that black people are on an equal economic footing with poor whites when, in their minds, affirmative action and other Democratic-induced "perks" have given blacks an unfair advantage these days.

and

3) Southern politicians who have in fact been desperately, quietly trying to DELINK the race and economic issues so that they can lure poor white cats back up onto the Democratic porch. Dean's explicit recharging of the race + economics issue kicked that effort right in the teeth. Mr. Nothern White Man has presumed to "begin talking about race again," and decided all by himself to reset the agenda in a direction they had been trying to move AWAY from for the last 15 years. That's what the really passionate "don't come down here and tell us what to do" thing from Edwards was really about, I think.

The only people pleased with Dean's bulling into the Southern china shop this way are the folks who, as I said last night, like what he said because it confirms their own moral arrogance. "We know what's right, and we're not going to be delicate or persuasive or gentle in how we go about convincing you. We're going to MAKE you see it our way!"

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  •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

    Education, healthcare and (the missing link) jobs.

    I am reposting my response to your comments from last night, Julia, when, depite the aggressiveness of your attack on Dean, you made some great points (as you do here)..

    The one thing Dean needs to add to that equation (to Julia's point) is jobs.

    The Republicans have used this strategy not only in the South, but also in the industrial Midwest, and, to some extent, in California.

    In Michigan, for example, many of the small manufacturing plants and machine shops that once made parts for cars (door handles, brake pedals, mirror housings, etc.) have been closed as the work was "outsourced" to Mexico, China and elsewhere.

    These were good jobs for uneducated people.  Jobs that provided a halfway decent living for families where education ended at high school or before.

    The Republicans have presented themselves (disingenuously) as the party that protects jobs (for whites) by severely limiting immigration, for example.

    It's a simple race-baiting argument that has worked for them.

    If I was Dean or any Dem, I would link the items you mentioned (healthcare, education, housing) with jobs or at least the creation of some kind of jobs creation program for rural industrial America.

    That's the way to win white voters from these areas.

    That's why I liked the gist of Julia's post.

    •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

      I agree with all the substantive parts of your post, but I continued to be baffled by the way people see aggressiveness against Dean when constructive criticism is offered.  Julia's post was impassioned but not aggressive, isn't that what Howard Dean is supposed to inspire in us?

      --teasing a bit, perhaps unfair;)--

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:27:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

    Julia,

    While I totally understand what your trying to say..

    I don't think your right.

    I'm a southerner.. and hell If I don't respect Dean for being blunt about it. Personally I think Deans blunt persona will win him support simply because IMO the number one thing Southerners REALLY can't stand is someone pandering to them.

    Dean used a bad example, he knows it, I know it, and most people know it.

    It didn't hurt him though.. hes still polling 3rd-4th in most of the south ATM behind the 2 southern people running. And that without really even campaigning yet in the South.

    The whole Cflag thing is over, it was a stupid way to say something good. shrug It hasn't hurt Dean much if any really, he hasn't lost a ton of support, he hasn't lost out on fundraising, and he hasn't been turned on by the African-American's in the Democratic party it seems.

    Look, this is about as big a gaffe and your man Clarks "mary help" comment a few days after entering the race.

    Its over 8)

    •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

      I don't know if it hurt him or not, but the reason I find it disturbing is that it hurt the possibility of having a decent discussion about race and economics about race and politics about race and fear.  You are right he will probably come out of it relative unscathed, though won't be able to tell until people have the option of voting Dean (D) or Bush (R) to really tell. This is the reason I found the whole thing so problematic, and why I'm disturbed by the way he mucked it up.  Should I grant him points for trying?  I'm torn on that, since he did muck it up so badly.  But very few people actually care about that and they may, in fact, be relieved that the subject can be put behind them and written off as a "gaffe".  

      I would contest, slightly, your assertion that "everybody" knows it was a gaffe.  That simple statement still seems to raise a great deal of ire around here and much protestation to the contrary.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:33:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

        What made Dean's awkward way of explaining how to appeal to southern whites worse was the way other Democratic candidates piled on to try to score political points.  They tripped over themselves to condemn Dean's use of the confederate flag, when they knew damn well that Dean wasn't glorifying or endorsing the flag at all.

        1,657.5 pledged + 41 projected + 306.5 Supers + 24 more add-ons + 5 Pelosi Club = 2,034 The nomination is in the bag for Obama!

        by CA Pol Junkie on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:55:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

          That is certainly true that the follow-up didn't help, but as I explained almost continuously on Julia's other thread, I actually see the Edwards/Sharpton responses through very different lenses than the "just piling on to score political points" cw.  But again, if Dean were the "leader" he claims he wants to be and if he were really "talking plainly about race" he would have tried to understand it better, to think it through more clearly, to expect those responses (for reasons having not to do with campaigning but with what he had opened up by using the cf)and would have found a way to use that moment as an important moment to do things differently.  

          So, yes, I am disappointed in the mainstream of the Dem candidate slate (and the mainstream of the Democratic Party)?  Yes, very much so, they blew it again.  Just like I remain disappointed with them on foreign policy issues and in particular their stance on US/Israel relations. But if you are claiming to be "different" and to do something different, then it is incumbent upon you to actually do something different, or at least know why what you are doing isn't really different at all. Therefore, a greater responsibility attributed to Dean in my book.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:02:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed... (none / 0)

      As a fellow Southerner, I think 1floridademocrat has it right.

      You DO NOT grab his whiskers and get into his face and scream, "I know what you're doing out there in the yard with those dogs, and you're wrong and you're a bad, stupid cat to believe what those rotten canines say.

      I would agree if that's how Dean's comment translated, but it wasn't. Republicans have been using social wedge issues in the South for 35 years to persuade those whom Dean's remark described to vote against the economic best interests. If Dean was speaking to anyone, he was speaking to those in the Democratic Party who have ceded the South to the Rs and left the field open for the Rs to capitalize on the deplorable tactics they employ.

      In the South, you cannot delink race and economics.  Nor can you delink class and economics. On the ground, working class whites and working class blacks know this. Dean said it far better when he said that we have got to stop having the campaigns run in this country based on abortion, guns, God and gays, and start talking about education, jobs and health care.

    •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

      The whole Cflag thing is over

      I wouldn't bet on that.

      If Dean wins the nomination, I find it very hard to believe that his comment isn't going to be recycled over and over and over again (by the media, by the Republicans, etc).

      To win here in Louisiana, a Democrat must get the support of the black vote.  I certainly don't expect many blacks to get all fired up in a positive way about someone who said such a ridiculous comment.

      Without music, life would be a mistake.

      by Cory on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:03:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

    Here's Jimmy Carter's take on Dean and the flag from TIME:

    THE DEAN CAMPAIGN EVOKES SOME MEMORIES OF YOUR CANDIDACY IN '76. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HIS CHANCES? He seems to be doing quite well.  He came down to Georgia when he was just planning the campaign  and talked to me and my wife about the basic tactics of '76. On  occasion, he has called me to give me a report on his campaign or  to ask a question.

    ARE YOU A SUPPORTER OF HIS CANDIDACY? No, I'm going to support  whoever I think will have the best chance next November.

    WAS DEAN OFFENSIVE OR JUST TOO HONEST IN SAYING HE WANTED THE SUPPORT OF "GUYS WITH CONFEDERATE FLAGS IN THEIR PICKUP TRUCKS"?  As I told him afterward, if you had just said you want the support of Southern whites that drive pickup trucks, the same message would have got across. But when he threw in the Confederate flag, it showed a little bit of an incompatibility with national opinion.

    DO ANY OF THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES HAVE A CHANCE AGAINST BUSH?  It depends on two things. One is what's going on in Iraq and the war against terrorism. And the other is the economy. I think it's too early to say what's going to be happening in either.

    Without music, life would be a mistake.

    by Cory on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:37:13 PM PDT

  •  Commendable? (none / 0)

    Julia:

    Must say, I find your stick-to-it-ivenssive on this really admirable.  I haven't much faith that you'll get very far, but wanted to salute the effort.

    BTW: What part of the South are you observing/commenting from?  I know hamletta offers viewpoints from central TN/Nashville, and PhilS from east TN (I'm assuming Knoxville but could be wrong there).  Folks like 1floridademocrat and Atl Dem and ga6thdem are pretty obvious, as are LB in NC.  And Bill Rehm is coming from NC I believe, too (others I know but can't remember at the moment.) Finally IIRC KevinA has mentioned on a couple of occasions that he's from SC (again, correct me if I'm wrong).  I've been trying to see what kind of a picture we are actually getting about the South from the south and from which parts, but its hard to tell sometimes.

    Thanks.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:39:25 PM PDT

    •  Re: Commendable? (none / 0)

      Must say, I find your stick-to-it-ivenssive on this really admirable.

      Admirable, but I do think it's over-reacting.

      nd PhilS from east TN (I'm assuming Knoxville but could be wrong there).

      Born and bred in Chattanooga; lived in Knoxpatch for all but 5 years since '75.

      •  Re: Commendable? (none / 0)

        Admirable, but I do think it's over-reacting.

        I assumed it had more than a little bit to do with wanting to figure out how best and most clearly to say what one means, rather than petulance or hysteria (or even the need to persuade), but I do tend to give people the benefit of the doubt -- or at least try to.

        I'm coming from the other side of the gorge from you, in rural W.N.C., with an upbringing split between there and suburban Atlanta.  Probably explains a lot of why I understand your posts.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:07:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Commendable? (none / 0)

          Will be in Brevard this Sunday to meet with a group of folks who share a different hobby of mine. It's do-it-yourself audio and it's surprising how many of these kind of geeks are liberal Dems.
          •  Re: Commendable? (none / 0)

            There is a little pocket of progressives/liberal Dems in and around Asheville as best I can tell.  I'll trust your expertise on the geek community.

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 10:42:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Re: Commendable? (none / 0)

      I was born in North Carolina and I'm in the Charleston, SC area right now.

      I spent a chunk of my childhood in northern Florida.

      But I've also lived all over the world in the (mumble) decades of my life. Probably more years out of the South all told than in over my lifetime, but the last 12+ have been back here.

  •  Re: Let Me Try Again (none / 0)

    I think "we don't need your kind down here" is an ironic way to attack arrogance and elitism.

    We seem to have arrived at an equitable compromise: Sen. Clinton is staying in the nomination race while Sen. Obama drops out to move on to the general.

    by Michael D on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:40:26 PM PDT

  •  Two ways to get across... (none / 0)

    Julia;

    Being the owner of a cat, I agree - your way is a very good way, often the best way, to get that cat up the porch.  In a perfectly timed and prepared-for world, where the time existed for it, I would have liked this approach much better from Dean.

    Unfortunately, another way is to start tough, then soften as you are then seen as "giving it up" to compromise, making sure you keep the kernel of what you really want all the while.  

    My cat gets mad when I have to kennel him to go on longish trips, so he deliberately and in a showy way ignores me for a while to make known his displeasure once we're both home again.  I ignore him back, even turning away from him at times when I know he wants me to look at him.  Stupid as it sounds, the more I give him back what he's giving, and am not being cruel about it, the sooner he deicdes he wants attention from me.  When I give it, he thinks I'm folding like a house of cards, and life is better all around.

    Given that the Dems are often seen as too wishy-washy, Dean doesn't entirely get hurt by starting tough, then mellowing out without sounding like he's caving in on what matters.  Also don't forget that the "pickup" phrase was around long before the broo-ha-ha over it, and was pushed hard by his opponents.

    Decoupling race versus economic matters is important in the South (though it actually matters all over the country - the dirty little secret of the Northeast, for example, is that when African-Americans are seen as too dominant politically in the area, moderate Repugs tend to win more elections), but race has to eventually be addressed.  And while Dean should have been smoother in his approach, I think some folks will be inclined to give him more of a benefit of a doubt than you think because it wasn't seen as a wishy-washy attempt.

    God gave us his own child as a sacrifice. Bush wants to take yours...

    by Palamedes on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:43:26 PM PDT

    •  Re: Two ways to get across... (none / 0)

      I know nuthin' about cats (and don't really want to) but your last paragraph is so on target that I wish (again) we could hotspot or highlight individual posts for suggested/required reading.  The dirty secret part, especially.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:12:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You realize that... (none / 1)

    that your approach involves deception, treats the very people you are trying to defend as if they aren't quite bright enough to deal with the unvarnished truth and is every bit as condescending as you seem to think Dean's remarks were.
    •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

      I think that there is a way to engage people without pandering to them.  I have written a couple of diaries on this topic.  Gain people's trust, don't alienate them, focus on commonalities and be the kind of person they want to emulate.  I think Dean was trying to honestly reach out to these folks.  It just stuck out as awkward, because politicians typically don't reach out, they pander.

      In all, it doesn't seem like any harm was done.  He gained new respect in the eyes of, or at least intrigued, Southerners that I know.

      Give to the Daily KOS 8!

      by Aaron Gillies on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 07:11:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

      your approach involves deception, treats the very people you are trying to defend as if they aren't quite bright enough to deal with the unvarnished truth and is every bit as condescending as you seem to think Dean's remarks were.

      Perhaps.

      But it's certainly not as visibly and overtly insulting to the taget audience.

      And -- this is very important -- politics is the art of PERSUASION, last I looked. To do it properly AND leave the most room for the free will of the folks you are trying to get on your side, your goal should be to manage perceptions, gently move existing ideas in a favorable direction and cajole agreement.

      You really can't simply stuff voters into their cat carriers and then sort it out with them later.

      But that's increasingly the impression I get from the Dean campaign, that they think they it will be possible just grab the electorate by the tail and force it to their will, make the American people understand dozens of new (even revolutionary!) things their way, simply because they're so gosh-darn RIGHT!

      For example: "All we have to do is tell these dimwits the facts, and they'll understand all about the deficit. Their ignorance and selfishness will instantly vanish. They won't want their tax breaks anymore, and they won't believe Republican propaganda about them, either!"

      You know, it's nice to have faith in your fellow human beings, but it's wiser to have faith in the art of the POSSIBLE.

      •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

        For example: "All we have to do is tell these dimwits the facts, and they'll understand all about the deficit. Their ignorance and selfishness will instantly vanish. They won't want their tax breaks anymore, and they won't believe Republican propaganda about them, either!"

        I'm sorry. I just don't see it like this.  I don't get any sense that Dean or his supporters expect to simply recite facts and expect all to cow before their brilliance. Again, I think Dean's message was intended as a wake-up call to Democrats, not an insult to working class Southern whites.  There's no question it was clumsily worded, but it will live on only if folks like you keep dredging it up trying to make it into something it's not.

        Actually, I think Dean gets it.  These folks are not the ignorant rabble easily swayed with scare tactics that the Rs have taken them for all these years. And I share his sense that these people are aware that all those Republican votes haven't gotten them jack s**t.  But they still don't trust the Democratic Party because they see it as a party of panderers who try to be all things to all people.

        So the Dean campaign comes in and tells folks that they want to help them with the things that matter most and affect their everyday quality of life. Whether you're white or black, you and your kids need health care.  Your kids need a decent education so they have a chance at life.  And you need jobs and job security so you can put a roof over their heads, food in their bellies, and clothes on their backs.

        It's OK to be against abortion.  We're not going to force you to have one. But neither are we going back to those days when poor women were butchered in back alleys while rich women saw Park Avenue doctors. Our insistence on fair treatment for gays and African-Americans means will will also insist on fair treatment for you. And we respect and will preserve your right to pray anywhere anytime, but we will also respect the beliefs of others and resist codifying religion into law.

        Straight talk that's not condescending. I believe most Southerners can respond to that.

        •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

          I don't get any sense that Dean or his supporters expect to simply recite facts and expect all to cow before their brilliance.

          In all fairness, perhaps this is because you are one of them?  Or at least is this possible?  I do often have that sense, not so much from the Dean campaign (which I don't pay so much attention to) but from the sample of Dean supporters that I run across on the Internet.  (In person they are less "certain" I must say.  Perhaps its the combination of the medium and the context of argumentation that fuels this, I dunno).  

          All you have to do is read this thread and the one from last night to see it, but I could pick out almost any random thread from dKos and find it.  

           

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 10:50:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Re: You realize that... (none / 0)

            In all fairness, perhaps this is because you are one of them?  Or at least is this possible?

            Absolutely possible. I'm human too.

            I see two general types of Dean supporters in threads around the blogosphere. (I stopped reading the Dean blog itself because I OD'd on exclamation points.) There's the "Dean's great! I support Dean! End of argument!" types, whose arrogance do the candidate and his more thoughtful supporters no good and actually alienates folks.  (In fairness, Wes Clark seems to attract a fair number of these types also).

            Then there are the more rational supporters who attempt to analylize and then offer honest opinions.  Folkbum comes immediately to mind, but there are many others.  This group, of which I'd like to think I'm part, has it's biases, too.  We've picked a candidate to support, after all, and we are interested in persuading others to support him.

            I may be guilty of being myopic and focussing on the latter group while ignoring the former when I make remarks like the one you highlight. I tend to do this with Clark supporters, too, bypassing the starstruck in an attempt to try and understand what the man's appeal is and why it is so lost on me.

  •  Re: Let Me Try Again (4.00 / 3)

    I just posted this over at the end of last night's dead thread, without having seen this new one, so apologies for reposting it (and editing it slightly for crankiness).

    This is an extremely interesting and important thread. Kudos to Julia Grey and A Gilas Girl for provoking and forcefully debating this crucial issue. We need to be having this discussion. While some may have objected to Julia's anti-Dean framing of the subject, it accomplished two important things: 1) it thoughtfully challenged the suffocating pro-Dean conventional wisdom around here; and 2) made sure that a lot of people saw it and grappled with it, since it guaranteed that a swarm of Dean Defenders would rush to refute it (honestly, how many responses do you think this diary would have gotten if it had been labelled something like "The South, economics, and race"? Maybe ten, if that).

    Here's what troubles me. Here on dKos, and, I fear, in the Dean campaign, there's a kind of condescending, irritated attitude toward the inconvenient fact that the South has such a disproportionate power over the outcome of the election. Some of this feels emotionally justified--I'm as horrified as anyone at the way the country seems to have been remodeled into the United States of Texas. But a lot of it comes off as northern parochialism masquerading as liberal universalism (e.g. the self-righteous fury over Edwards' slam on "people like you"; the relief expressed in a recent diary that Dean doesn't have a southern accent; the numerous posts about how the Dems should just "forget about the South"; the way in which the rebel flag comment both stereotyped "poor Southern whites" while pandering to liberal northerners who enjoy having their own prejudices of their moral, and regional, superiority confirmed; etc.). We can rage about it all we want, but the South isn't going anywhere, and if we want any hope of winning next November, we need to engage it, not preach to it, or tell it it's stupid for having voted for Republicans in the past. Turn that around: if I told the northern readers of this blog that you were stupid for having voted for Dems, because, say, their notorious moral relativism has led to a decline in our nation's greatness, you'd scream at me, and rightfully so. And there's no way in hell you'd vote for my candidate (note, for instance, the bile spewed on this site at Holy Joe Lieberman--whom I don't particularly like either--for trying to bring that perspective into the Democratic race). But other people, a lot of people in the South, for instance, genuinely believe this. So what are you gonna do about it? Call them bible-thumping hicks and write them off? Use your "doctor's logic" to tell them that they shouldn't care about these things? Good luck. And for Dean to try to reduce the issue of race in particular to one of simple economics (while unfortunately framing it with a gratuitously inflammatory and essentializing stereotype), while appealing to our already biased liberal/rational notions of how the world should work, is dangerously myopic in the face of how the world, and particularly the South, does work. These boards are full of paeans to Dean's craftiness and adaptability and foresight. Well, this is one area he'd better use some of that ballyhooed Dean magic on soon, or, whether we like it or not, we're going to have serious problems in the general election.

    Take this as constructive criticism. If Dean is nominated, of course I want to see him elected, which is why this is such an important issue. Don't flame me as a Dean-hater.

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